LDS

[RandFan]

Being taken in by Mormon "scriptures" show a level of gullibility that is inconsistent with having the authority to order the launch nuclear weapons. Of course it would be far better to have a non-believer as president. If though we one isn't on offer, I'd prefer one who goes through the motions or uses religion as a cynical tool to one who falls for the BoM.

Compartmentalization. Mormons can be and ofter are very rational. One of the bugs features of human cognition is the ability to be rational in one area while irrational in another. Newton being a prime example. One of the greatest most rational minds ever, he believed in Alchemy and wrote copious amounts of nonsense on the subject.

 

[Vic Vega]

In order to start your own religion for power and hopefully some cash.

Or you may be bored of monogamy and want a little strange. What better way to accomplish this and make some good money than start a religion where poygamy is a major tenent?

Makes sense to me.

 

[Janadele]

The answers all lie in the reason for our existence here on this earth, and apply to all who have ever lived in mortality... including Cain and Able.
Free agency is the basis of our earthly trial.
How could Cain be judged for his actions, and receive the consequences thereof, if he was not allowed to choose and given the freedom to act on his choice of action?
That does not say guidance was not given. Adam was given the "fullness" of the Eternal Gospel... which he taught his posterity.
We all, including Cain, have existed always... first as an intelligence, then our Heavenly parents created our Spiritual bodies... in which our intelligence was housed.
Therefore it was not an option for God to "create Cain less prone to violence".
We are who we are, tempered by lessons learnt in the past, our achievements, and our stage of progression.
As today, as also in the beginning, jealousy is one of the roots of evil... Cain envied Able and hated him for his achievements and favour with God.

Okay...Janedele, I have another subjective question for you. Again, I just want YOUR opinion, not the official church answer, okay?

Why did God allow Cain to slay Abel?

Supposedly, God doesn't interfere with our trials. But, He did interfere with Cain. He interfered when he asked where Abel was, and he interfered again when he put a mark on Cain.

Now, God being GOD, the supernatural, preternatural, all-powerful, all-knowing had at least the several options that I, the puny human can put together in a few minutes, and probably many more.

He could have:

created Cain less prone to violence.
*talked to Cain about his homocidal rages before he slew anyone.
sent Cain to live in Nod before anyone got hurt.
accepted Cain's sacrifice to keep the peace.
rejected both sacrifices to keep the peace.
warned Abel to get the hell out of town -Nod was a safer place to be.
put a mark on Abel so that none could kill him, including Cain.

So why, in your opinion, did God allow Abel to be murdered by Cain? What, exactly, did Abel do that justified his violent death by his own brother?

*According to the KJV, God did speak to Cain. But he did not advise him against murdering anyone. All-knowing God certainly knew what was going to happen, right?

 

[kerikiwi]

Janadele, what is your position on the barley question?

 

[RandFan]

As today, as also in the beginning, jealousy is one of the roots of evil... Cain envied Able and hated him for his achievements and favour with God.

I have another question: Why did god punish Cain's children?

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. --4th Article of Faith

 

[Janadele]

It is irrelevant, of no consequence... nor of any eternal significance.
I stand by my previous posts on the matter.

Janadele, what is your position on the barley question?

 

[DragonLady]

Free agency is the basis of our earthly trial.
How could Cain be judged for his actions, and receive the consequences thereof, if he was not allowed to choose and given the freedom to act on his choice of action?

Okay.... But Cain took that same choice away from Abel. Abel was not allowed to live, act, and receive consequences.

That does not say guidance was not given. Adam was given the "fullness" of the Eternal Gospel... which he taught his posterity.

Then how did Cain miss the "thou shalt not kill" memo? Did Adam fail to pass that bit along?

We all, including Cain, have existed always... first as an intelligence, then our Heavenly parents created our Spiritual bodies... in which our intelligence was housed.

Which leads me to wonder if a spiritual Cain is plotting someone's spiritual murder....

Therefore it was not an option for God to "create Cain less prone to violence".

How can that be? God is omnipotent, is he not? He makes the options. But if he's not omnipotent, then perhaps he should have reconsidered creating Cain? Or, having made that mistake, should have considered putting a mark on Abel?

See...Abel lost his life. Apparently he lost his life for no reason other than to appease Cain's desire to murder.

We are who we are, tempered by lessons learnt in the past, our achievements, and our stage of progression.

Like the "Lesson of Abel"?

Thou shalt not bother to attempt to please the Lord, for even if you do, he will still stand in the clouds and watch quietly while a member of your own family murders you for it.

As today, as also in the beginning, jealousy is one of the roots of evil... Cain envied Able and hated him for his achievements and favour with God.

Again, we don't know about his achievements, or his ongoing favor. Abel may well have screwed up severiously later, but he never got the chance.

God gave everyone free will. But then gave Cain -and others- the power to remove that will. Why would he do that?

 

[John Jones]

It is irrelevant, of no consequence... nor of any eternal significance.
I stand by my previous posts on the matter.

Then what about the swine, horses and cattle, and steel mentioned in the BoM? These things didn't exist in the new world at the time the BoM was purportedly written.

Didn't you previously say that the BoM contained no errors?

 

[RandFan]

Okay.... But Cain took that same choice away from Abel. Abel was not allowed to live, act, and receive consequences.

P: When person A kills person B, person B is denied free will.
C: God values the free will of killers over the free will of their victims.

 

[jsfisher]

It is irrelevant, of no consequence... nor of any eternal significance.
I stand by my previous posts on the matter.

That is a very interesting response. A provable, demonstrable lie in the Book of Mormon, the very foundation of the LDS Church, is of no consequence. Most interesting, indeed, since the barley question and its relatives strike at the very core of the legitimacy of the Book of Mormon.

Surely there must be some argument a faithful Mormon would offer to reconcile Mormon scripture with historic fact and vindicate Joseph Smith from allegations of deliberate fraud.

 

[RandFan]

Then what about the swine, horses and cattle, and steel mentioned in the BoM? These things didn't exist in the new world at the time the BoM was purportedly written.

Didn't you previously say that the BoM contained no errors?

There is no mention of Maize. Why?

 

[RandFan]

That is a very interesting response. A provable, demonstrable lie in the Book of Mormon, the very foundation of the LDS Church, is of no consequence. Most interesting, indeed, since the barley question and its relatives strike at the very core of the legitimacy of the Book of Mormon.

Surely there must be some argument a faithful Mormon would offer to reconcile Mormon scripture with historic fact and vindicate Joseph Smith from allegations of deliberate fraud.

Book of Mormon Difficulties

The point is there are simply too many anachronisms in the Book of Mormon to ignore and the LDS apologists will always come up with some sort of answer to explain how these anachronisms do not entirely necessarily discredit the Book of Mormon. There may be explanations that makes sense for some of these but it's difficult to believe that they all can be explained away.

 

[Pup]

Janadele, what is your position on the barley question?

I've always liked this comic on the general topic:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2005

For what it's worth, I asked my wife her position on the barley question.

She said there are errors in the Book of Mormon, just as there are errors in the Bible, and in the long term, she thinks the LDS church is going to be forced to make some changes due to scientific/archaelogical discoveries. People who get too locked into the details of their beliefs are going to be completely devastated when things prove otherwise so she says she's trying to keep an open mind about things. In the long run, she said the basic message that she takes away from the Book of Mormon has led her to practice a better life, whether it's true or not, since it teaches morals, a love of your fellow man, that sort of thing, so she feels the influence has been positive for her overall, and the people are nicer than in the other religions she's met.

 

[DragonLady]

In the long run, she said the basic message that she takes away from the Book of Mormon has led her to practice a better life, whether it's true or not, since it teaches morals, a love of your fellow man, that sort of thing, so she feels the influence has been positive for her overall, and the people are nicer than in the other religions she's met.

I think that might be a good reason to follow any positive religion. If it makes you, as an individual, believe you are a better person for it, then that is probably a good thing.

Personally, I can't get past the Abels and the Jobs and the peoples killed in the flood and the peoples slaughtered wholesale.... The victim count is just far too high, IMO.

 

[RandFan]

I've always liked this comic on the general topic:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2005

For what it's worth, I asked my wife her position on the barley question.

She said there are errors in the Book of Mormon, just as there are errors in the Bible, and in the long term, she thinks the LDS church is going to be forced to make some changes due to scientific/archaelogical discoveries. People who get too locked into the details of their beliefs are going to be completely devastated when things prove otherwise so she says she's trying to keep an open mind about things. In the long run, she said the basic message that she takes away from the Book of Mormon has led her to practice a better life, whether it's true or not, since it teaches morals, a love of your fellow man, that sort of thing, so she feels the influence has been positive for her overall, and the people are nicer than in the other religions she's met.

Cool wife. When I left the Mormon Church I never argued with my wife about it. She was worried about me but supportive. I never preached to her and she never preached to me. We talked a lot though and eventually she left the church also.

 

[jsfisher]

I've always liked this comic on the general topic:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2005

For what it's worth, I asked my wife her position on the barley question.

Thank you, Pup, both for the comic link and for querying your wife.

She said there are errors in the Book of Mormon, just as there are errors in the Bible, and in the long term, she thinks the LDS church is going to be forced to make some changes due to scientific/archaelogical discoveries. People who get too locked into the details of their beliefs are going to be completely devastated when things prove otherwise so she says she's trying to keep an open mind about things. In the long run, she said the basic message that she takes away from the Book of Mormon has led her to practice a better life, whether it's true or not, since it teaches morals, a love of your fellow man, that sort of thing, so she feels the influence has been positive for her overall, and the people are nicer than in the other religions she's met.

You wife qualifies as what I coined in another thread, an intelligent person of faith. Her faith is a belief without hard evidence to support it, not a belief despite the evidence. Not every religious person is an intelligent person of faith.

 

[tsig]

The answers all lie in the reason for our existence here on this earth, and apply to all who have ever lived in mortality... including Cain and Able.
Free agency is the basis of our earthly trial.
How could Cain be judged for his actions, and receive the consequences thereof, if he was not allowed to choose and given the freedom to act on his choice of action?
That does not say guidance was not given. Adam was given the "fullness" of the Eternal Gospel... which he taught his posterity.
We all, including Cain, have existed always... first as an intelligence, then our Heavenly parents created our Spiritual bodies... in which our intelligence was housed.
Therefore it was not an option for God to "create Cain less prone to violence".
We are who we are, tempered by lessons learnt in the past, our achievements, and our stage of progression.
As today, as also in the beginning, jealousy is one of the roots of evil... Cain envied Able and hated him for his achievements and favour with God.

God doesn't have free will?

 

[dafydd]

God doesn't have free will?

I suppose that her god has to answer to a creator too. And so forth. Bossy creators all the way down.

 

[Slowvehicle]

It is irrelevant, of no consequence... nor of any eternal significance.
I stand by my previous posts on the matter.

So, it doesn't matter that there are factual errors in the revealed,perfect, divinely inspired text; they are "irrelevant, of no consequence"...

Is that a fair assessment?

 

[Janadele]

The Book of Mormon is not in error. Those who criticise it are.