LDS

[Janadele]

Ambrosia,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

We are ultimately saved by grace through faith, but all will be judged individually on our own actions and choices.

There are many degrees of "salvation"... depends whether you are content with the lowest degree for eternity, or strive for the highest.

Faith is the key to overcome doubt, when one thinks of eternity, the importance of it, and the triviality of our life here... where one thousand years of our time is but a day in our Heavenly Fathers time, we can see that our brief sojourn on earth is but a twinkle in eternity. We have barely stepped out of our Heavenly home to experience our "trial", before it is time to return.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Grace is a word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ. Grace is the divine assistance or heavenly help each of us desperately needs to qualify for the celestial kingdom. Thus, the enabling power of the Atonement strengthens us to do and be good and to serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.

The Saviour has paid the price and made it possible for us to become clean through His redeeming power. http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/04/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng

Janadele......The teachings of any particular subset of Christian involves believing in and adhering to a persons interpretation of "Gods word".....

LDS teachings refer to yet another book of the bible, the book of Mormon. As well as later teachings from "the prophet" and from those you hold the belief that a person cannot progress in eternal life in heaven without being physically baptised in water...

how do you rationalise

Originally Posted by Janadele
Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.
with

Originally Posted by Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[kerikiwi]

KiriKiwi,
That is the eternal question which has been answered time and time again If you read my previous posts the answer is there.

I read all of your posts, and no, the answer is not there.
How do you know the stuff you believe is true?

 

[Janadele]

There are many references on this subject, the link to the following was provided in my previous answer:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/10/the-joy-of-redeeming-the-dead?lang=eng
... the keys Elijah restored to Joseph Smith permit our hearts to be bound and each of us linked to those of our ancestors who are waiting for our help. Through our efforts in holy temples here on earth using the authority delegated by the Savior, our progenitors receive the saving ordinances that allow them to enjoy eternal happiness.

Yes, I understood that. I asked you a different question, though...

 

[kerikiwi]

... the keys Elijah restored to Joseph Smith permit our hearts to be bound and each of us linked to those of our ancestors who are waiting for our help. Through our efforts in holy temples here on earth using the authority delegated by the Savior, our progenitors receive the saving ordinances that allow them to enjoy eternal happiness.

How do you know?

 

[Janadele]

Often the answer to what is sought, is not what the seeker wants to hear nor is willing to accept.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

How do you know?

To be fair, she did answer that. She just knows in her heart.
I'd amend the question to, how would you convince anyone else?

 

[Janadele]

Some will never be convinced... up until they pass from this mortal trial and realise to their sorrow that they have failed, and wasted the precious opportunity which was given to them, but now lost.

They have hardened their hearts to the promptings of their own Spirit, to the knowledge which they had in the pre existence, to Eternal Law, and turned their back on their Heavenly Father and the Eternal Gospel of Salvation.

To be fair, she did answer that. She just knows in her heart.
I'd amend the question to, how would you convince anyone else?

 

[kerikiwi]

To be fair, she did answer that. She just knows in her heart.
I'd amend the question to, how would you convince anyone else?

Well that is just saying she knows because she knows.
It tells us that she knows (or, believes) it doesn't address the question of how she knows

 

[Janadele]

KeriKiwi:

Pray with a sincere heart, with real intent, ask in the name of Jesus Christ.

Study the Scriptures.

Talk to the LDS Missionaries.

 

[kerikiwi]

KeriKiwi:

Pray with a sincere heart, with real intent, ask in the name of Jesus Christ.

Study the Scriptures.

Talk to the LDS Missionaries.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
i am not seeking to believe. I am trying to understand why you believe what you believe.

 

[Pixel42]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
i am not seeking to believe. I am trying to understand why you believe what you believe.

Because she had a burning in her bossom after reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it. The missionaries said she would if it was all true, and she did.

I've argued with another LDS believer on line, and it also all came back to this. No matter how many factual errors and general sillyness in his beliefs we pointed out to him, it could never outweigh the fact that he was able to self-induce a particular physical sensation. That proved it all, and anything that didn't currently seem to make sense would be explained to him by God in the afterlife.

ETA: Just had a look for an article I once read on the subject; I couldn't find it, but did find several warning articles by Christians like this one:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/book-of-mormon.htm

Again, be on your guard. To pray about something like the Book of Mormon or bowing before a Mary statue can allow the devil to give you an experience that will deceive you. A burning in the bosom from such would not be the testimony of the Holy Spirit, as the Latter Day Saint people like to say/think. This is very important to remember and tell others about.

One of my family members prayed about the Jehovah's Witnesses and got a burning in the bosom about that false religion. Is God giving the burning in the bosom experience to the Mormons and people who pray about the Jehovah’s Witnesses too? It would be impossible because these two beliefs are poles apart from each other. (These facts would also be good to share with the Mormon missionaries when they get emphatic about you praying with regard to the BOM.)

 

[kerikiwi]

Because she had a burning in her bossom after reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it. The missionaries said she would if it was all true.

She had a young baby. Believe me, that burning in the bosom had another explanation entirely.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Some will never be convinced... up until they pass from this mortal trial and realise to their sorrow that they have failed, and wasted the precious opportunity which was given to them, but now lost.

They have hardened their hearts to the promptings of their own Spirit, to the knowledge which they had in the pre existence, to Eternal Law, and turned their back on their Heavenly Father and the Eternal Gospel of Salvation.

Of course, if you were following a false religion started by the devil, (s)he would make you feel exactly that and discourage any form of doubt or self reflection lest you find out your religion is actually NOT the right one.

Didn't you say somewhere that you were told that doubting is the devil's work? And isn't that exactly what the devil would say?
A true religion would not even call up doubt at all, and thus not discourage it.

 

[Janadele]

No Lukraak Sisser, I did not say that... you must be remembering another poster.

 

[Janadele]

KeriKiwi:
I notice you are from Bay of Islands NZ... I have fond memories of this unpolluted magical part of the world, having cruised many times with Bay of Islands being a significent stop over. I can see it now... white sands, clear waters sparkling in the sunshine.

 

[Ambrosia]

We are ultimately saved by grace through faith, but all will be judged individually on our own actions and choices.

That much is standard fare for any theist religion, pretty much.

There are many degrees of "salvation"... depends whether you are content with the lowest degree for eternity, or strive for the highest.

This bit seems to be tacked on by some of the more esoteric ones.

This is the idea that while all believers get to heaven, only the ones that got the most points on the exam get to the extra special heaven.

Which part of the teachings of the LDS church tell you that?

I am not sure I would want to live forever. I'd happily add on a few hundred thousand years to my lifetime, though eternity is a very long time.

 

[Janadele]

Eternity is indeed a very long time Ambrosia As eternal beings it is not our choice whether we continue to exist or not, our choice lies only in determining the conditions of our existance.

I am not sure I would want to live forever. I'd happily add on a few hundred thousand years to my lifetime, though eternity is a very long time.

 

[This is The End]

Some will never be convinced... up until they pass from this mortal trial and realise to their sorrow that they have failed, and wasted the precious opportunity which was given to them, but now lost.

Do you not realize how sick and disgusting it is for you to believe something like that?

We know that it also makes you feel good about yourself, though you will likely deny it and lie and say you "feel bad for them". Deep down inside you feel special. It drips from your posts like water.

After all, if there were no losers in the little special rules life game you are playing then what would be the point of winning...

 

[Mashuna]

Eternity is indeed a very long time Ambrosia As eternal beings it is not our choice whether we continue to exist or not, our choice lies only in determining the conditions of our existance.

Fortunately, there is no evidence that we are eternal beings, and plenty of evidence that we are not.

 

[Pup]

Some will never be convinced... up until they pass from this mortal trial and realise to their sorrow that they have failed, and wasted the precious opportunity which was given to them, but now lost.

They have hardened their hearts to the promptings of their own Spirit, to the knowledge which they had in the pre existence, to Eternal Law, and turned their back on their Heavenly Father and the Eternal Gospel of Salvation.

I think the above is a good example of why pointing out to true believers the obvious contradictions and nonsense of large, successful religions is generally useless. They're large and successful because they've had those things pointed out so many times and have been able to provide answers that are acceptable to enough believers, to keep going.

As Ambrosia mentioned above, it's like evolution: we're seeing the survival of the fittest religions, who are tough and hardy in their niche.

Christianity, and other religions too, rely on the smug comeback: when you're dead, you'll see I'm right.

How can one continue a discussion against that? It has all the argument-ending qualities of "neener neener." The opponent walks away in frustration, seeing that no logical debate is possible, and the religious person feels like they won.

And so the meme propagates, getting sharper teeth and claws, ensconcing itself more firmly in its niche.

The LDS church provided a significant mutation. Because it was so brand new, there was a problem: People had recent relatives who died without ever getting to join, and therefore would miss out on all the promised benefits. Today, with the heavy emphasis on the selling point of families being together forever, the problem is slightly different: Living relatives could join, but they won't.

Baptism for the dead, and the whole idea of being able to convert even after you died, was the new even more clever answer, a mutation that seems to be successful.