LDS

[dafydd]

Really hung up on that, aren't you? Assuming that the BoM and BA are frauds, tell me how that affects you.

Assuming?

 

[Pup]

So the LDS church should not enforce it's tenets on those not of church..

BUT..


BUT the LDS church should use it's influence and money to force people to follow it's tenet of 'No Homosexual Marriage'.

I don't think anyone has quoted this yet--may have missed it--but just for reference, here's the church's official position on political involvement:
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies#21.1.29

While affirming the right of expression on political and social issues, the Church is neutral regarding political parties, political platforms, and candidates for political office. The Church does not endorse any political party or candidate. Nor does it advise members how to vote. However, in some exceptional instances the Church will take a position on specific legislation, particularly when it concludes that moral issues are involved. Only the First Presidency can speak for the Church or commit the Church to support or oppose specific legislation or to seek to intervene in judicial matters.

There's more context at the link. It's funny, though. The following part could go either way. I mean, encouraging people to legally commit to each other as partners for life, rather than just tomcat around, maintains and strengthens the family, right?

Members are encouraged to support measures that strengthen the moral fabric of society, particularly those designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I have no interest in such insulting false opinions! To presume to be eligible to judge and proclaim that a deceased person would become a God merely by accepting a Baptism by proxy is preposterous. To declare this to be a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not only incorrect but blasphemous in the extreme.

...then why is it in your sect's scriptures?

 

[skyrider44]

I don't need to assume, I can see it right before my very eyes. I can see that the Book Of Mormon makes claims that are plainly contradicted by multiple scientific fields. I can read the translations of the Egyptian funerary texts that supposedly contained the Book Of Abraham.

Joseph Smith was a liar, and I don't need to ask how that makes you feel. It is obvious.

OK, so you know the BoM and BA are frauds and that Joseph Smith was a liar. How does that affect you?

 

[desertgal]

OK, so you know the BoM and BA are frauds and that Joseph Smith was a liar. How does that affect you?

Is the JREFF attempting to legally prohibit the members of the Mormon church from doing anything? Please cite.

 

[Foster Zygote]

To declare this to be a doctrine of [INSERT RELIGION] is not only incorrect but blasphemous in the extreme.

...Said someone in pretty much every religion ever for thousands of years.

 

[Foster Zygote]

OK, so you know the BoM and BA are frauds and that Joseph Smith was a liar.

Yes, I do. Unless, perhaps, you could offer an logical reasons to explain the scientific contradiction of the claims made in the Book Of Mormon, or explain why the entire field of Egyptological language studies is completely wrong about what the funerary texts "translated" by Joseph Smith actually says. Can you do that? Can you give me a sound reason to think that Smith's metaphysical claims are correct?

How does that affect you?

It means that I can recognize the metaphysical and moral claims of the LDS to be based on nothing more than the fabrications of a rogue seeking power and wealth.

 

[skyrider44]

So? Why can't you just answer the question? What gives the Mormon church the right to try and impose their rules on non-members?

The Mormon church doesn't have the right to impose its rules on non-members. It does have the right, however, to make its views known about issues as far-reaching as gay marriage. Would you deny them that right? Would you silence some voices that are not congruent with your own? Is that how representative democracy is supposed to work?

No "assuming" here.

Yes, I understand: You know that the BoM and BA are frauds. So tell me, how does that affect you?

 

[skyrider44]

. . . It means that I can recognize the metaphysical and moral claims of the LDS to be based on nothing more than the fabrications of a rogue seeking power and wealth.

And that knowledge impacts your life, including your standard of living. How so? Specifics, please.

 

[Foster Zygote]

The Mormon church doesn't have the right to impose its rules on non-members.

Yet that's just what they did with Prop 8.

It does have the right, however, to make its views known about issues as far-reaching as gay marriage.

How far reaching is the gay marriage issue? What impact will it have on the lives of Mormons such as yourself?

Would you deny them that right? Would you silence some voices that are not congruent with your own? Is that how representative democracy is supposed to work?

The fact that Mormons (and others) went through legal channels to impose their beliefs on non-Mormons doesn't make it morally justified. After all, those who supported racial segregation in the U.S. south were merely voicing their opinions, yes?

 

[Slowvehicle]

OK, so you know the BoM and BA are frauds and that Joseph Smith was a liar. How does that affect you?

I can't speak for Foster Zygote, but I can say that the transparent fraud of the BoA and the clumsy inventions of the BoM affect me not at all.

Nor would the sectarian superstitions contained therein affect me at all--were their observation limited to being practiced among consenting adults in private.

OTH, actions promulgate by individuals in thrall to the transparent fraud and clumsy inventions do affect me, particularly when the transparent fraud and clumsy invention are used to justify, for instance, members of your sect arrogating to impose the rules invented to control the behaviour of members upon non-members.

Bigotry, prejudice, discrimination; these things are wrong. They are even more distastefully wrong when "justified" by claims based on transparent frauds and clumsy inventions.

 

[Foster Zygote]

And that knowledge impacts your life, including your standard of living. How so? Specifics, please.

Stop being deliberately obtuse and just say what you mean. You are implying that the LDS has no effect on my day to day life, and you are wrong. As long as the LDS uses its wealth and socio/political influence to influence legislation pertaining to the society in which I live, it will have an effect on my life, and the lives on millions of others.

Let me remind you once again, before you go back to playing the victim, that this thread was started with this claim:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... ...is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

If you don't want to discuss this claim, if you don't want to address the overwhelming evidence of its falsehood, then I must once again ask, why do you keep returning to this thread?

 

[Olowkow]

And that knowledge impacts your life, including your standard of living. How so? Specifics, please.

We nearly wound up with a lying toady of your ilk as president, who would have greatly impacted my life while claiming he had the right to impose idiotic backward religious values created by some con man on government, that's how. No thanks.

Give up the tax exemption, and your church can do all the proselytizing they want on bigoted agendas. But you don't get to have it both ways.

 

[halleyscomet]

Because "marriage equality," as you euphemistically label it, strikes at a basic tenet of LDS doctrine. Churches are obligated to speak out on moral issues (though I don't know about sects). The Catholic Church, for example, hasn't been shy about its opposition to abortion

"Speaking out" and "Funding a massive campaign to deny non-members rights" are two very different things. I can speak out about your religion being founded by a group of pedophile polygamist con men. That's my right and my moral obligation. I am not, however, trying to ban the Book of Mormon or have it removed from libraries. Do you see the difference?

 

[Slowvehicle]

And that knowledge impacts your life, including your standard of living. How so? Specifics, please.

Your stridency might be more justified had you, for instance, ever actually answered my questions about how anything that happens among consenting adults in my demesne could possibly affect you , or your sect, or your practice of its superstitions.

I and mine are not trying to control your behaviour based on how we live.

You and yours are arrogating to control my behaviour based on rules invented to control members of your sect.

Were I ever to decide to join your sect, your rules would be germane--until then, not so much.

However, it is worth pointing out that the kind of mind in thrall to the transparent frauds and clumsy inventions of the BoA/M also appears to believe that same-gender marriage is likely to result in welfare orphans.

Or to believe that derails about typographical errors are substantive responses to questions.

Or claims that "marriage equality" a a description of the position that adults capable of consent ought to be allowed to participate in the legal rights and benefit of the civil institution of marriage is a "euphemism".

Now, when you edited this:

Originally Posted by skyrider44
Some on this forum assume that the LDS Church, all by itself, defeated the CA gay marriage initiative. Please note that other organizations actively opposed that initiative.

(quoted in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9576072#post9576072)

...into this:

Some on this forum assume that the LDS Church, all by itself, won the CA gay marriage "debate." Please note that other organizations actively supported that initiative.

You, did, in fact, substitute a euphemism for an accurate term. To what end?
The money, time, and effort your sect spent working to prevent consenting adults from participating in the legal rights and privilege of civil marriage was not, cannot correctly be said to have been, a "debate"--I wonder what nefarious purposes you are attempting to conceal with your euphemism?

It is also worth noticing that you offered no support to your claim, either in its original, correct formulation, or the euphemistic construction...

Nor did your ever explain why, if worshiping the 'god' of your sect is such a wonderful thing, you and yours are not helping people see that light, and come to want to live by your rules and follow your teachings.

 

[halleyscomet]

Really hung up on that, aren't you? Assuming that the BoM and BA are frauds, tell me how that affects you.

I have gay friends whose marriage was delayed because of Prop 8 in California. Your lovely pack of bigots played a rather large role in that.

I have a friend from college who was kicked out of the Boy Scouts because he was gay. The Boy Scout ban on gay members was the result of massive funding from the Mormon Church, and it wasn't dropped until the Mormons gave them permission to make the change. Gays still aren't allowed to be Scout Masters. Before you make the tired old "but, but pedophiles!" argument, I'll point out that most male pedophiles who abuse boys identify as straight in daily life.

 

[desertgal]

The Mormon church doesn't have the right to impose its rules on non-members. It does have the right, however, to make its views known about issues as far-reaching as gay marriage. Would you deny them that right? Would you silence some voices that are not congruent with your own? Is that how representative democracy is supposed to work?

No, I don't deny them the right to make their views known. I don't agree with them, and I'm surely allowed to say so. I also don't deny any member of the LDS church the right to believe what they believe. I let Mormons be, except when they try to force their views down my throat. Have you seen me join any forum, Mormon or otherwise, YOU might belong to, and argue that you all are wrong? YOU and JACKADELE came HERE, remember?

I don't agree with the Catholic church position on abortion, either, but the topic of this thread, as Jackadele is so fond of reminding us, is the Latter Day Saints.

Kindly remember you belong to an organisation who actively attempted to prohibit passage of Prop. 8. THAT affected more than just the members of the church. It was an attempt to force non members to abide by the tenets of the church. You've already admitted the Mormon church doesn't have that right, but they still did it, yet you are disagreeing with anyone else here who expresses the view they don't have that right?

Why? No one was trying to force Mormons into gay marriage via the proposition, were they?

Yes, I understand: You know that the BoM and BA are frauds. So tell me, how does that affect you?

It doesn't, right at this moment. As others have pointed out, that could change. I don't care that you believe in a con. I think you are stupid to do so, and I'm entitled to say that, but in the end, it's your prerogative to believe whatever you choose to believe.

(For the record, I've seen and experienced the damage the Mormon church can inflict, so please don't take the position that the hatred and bigotry and prejudice practiced by jack Mormons such as Jackadele doesn't affect non members, because you are wrong. Just because you close your mind to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.)

But I didn't bring my views or beliefs to you. You don't even know what my beliefs are. You and Jackadele brought yours here, and you are both getting pissy because people don't agree with you. But this is a forum dedicated to critical thinking, and that's what we do here.

If you can't accept the Mormon church being examined critically because YOU introduced the subject, then don't bring the subject to a skeptics forum. Go believe whatever you choose to believe, and stop trying to cram it down everyone else's throat. We didn't ask you to come here and preach, did we? The JREF isn't attempting to legally infringe on your right to belong to the Mormon church, is it?

 

[Craig4]

It affects everybody when someone pretends to dictate the way people should live based on lies and frauds.

This is an excellent point. The Mormon Church did inject itself in a public policy debate based on something that they either know or should know is the basest of frauds.

 

[joobz]

The Mormon church doesn't have the right to impose its rules on non-members. It does have the right, however, to make its views known about issues as far-reaching as gay marriage. Would you deny them that right? Would you silence some voices that are not congruent with your own? Is that how representative democracy is supposed to work?

Would you deny me the right to then say that your opinions on gay marriage derive from a known fraud and liar?
Isn't that debate part of how democracy works?

The difference here is I would change my opinion if my views were found to be based upon lies

 

[Lucian]

<snip>
Kindly remember you belong to an organisation who actively attempted to prohibit passage of Prop. 8. THAT affected more than just the members of the church. It was an attempt to force non members to abide by the tenets of the church. You've already admitted the Mormon church doesn't have that right, but they still did it, yet you are disagreeing with anyone else here who expresses the view they don't have that right?

And it's not the first time: the Mormon church also expended a lot of time, energy and money to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment.