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Klytus I'm bored

Getting short of Mormons around here. Oh let's see, I'll take a crack at some unanswered questions.

The 'perfection' of the BoM is sort of like when Christians say the Bible is infallible. Christians can say 'infallible' in a moral sense not a literary or typographical one. The BoM is more recent, and (in some traditions) a directly inspired translation = so it has in it what God wanted in it. The BoM has thus not suffered the gradual revision of time that the Bible has. (Ignoring the fact that in the short time it has existed there are already multiple versions with numerous differences).

The Urim and Thummim are traditionally portrayed as something like a wireframe pair of glasses with one lens round and one a triangle. They have a definite Steampunk aspect to them.

The BoM is a strong refutation to teachings that were promoted in the mid 1800's that became known as the Age of Enlightenment. Scripture was being interpreted allegorically rather than literally. Belief in miracles and such were on the decline. The message of the entire movement is to put a stop to all that creeping heresy, and the BoM is the flagship.

To start teaching the BoM as allegory, like some of the non Utah reformed and Community of Christ sometimes do, is 'polydox' - it just doesn't make any sense that a book of allegory would preach against allegory. Sheesh, the whole purpose of the book could be said to refute modern allegorical or critical exegesis examination of religious writings.
 
Casting lots is gambling, a sin. I know this because we had to teach my brother in law not only how to play poker, but what playing cards even were.
 
Kopji said:
The Urim and Thummim are traditionally portrayed as something like a wireframe pair of glasses with one lens round and one a triangle. They have a definite Steampunk aspect to them.
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That's certainly the way it is portrayed in the Mormon church, although as Rand pointed out, earlier versions have him using his trusty seer stone in his hat, curiously similar to his method of finding buried treasure before his final career as prophet took off.

Of course, the glasses aspect of the Urim and Thummim seems to be at odds with the Biblical version of them, where they appear to be more of a casting lots item, perhaps flat discs that were marked and God would use them to indicated which of two groups contained a sinner, or which group you belonged to by genealogy, etc. There certainly doesn't seem to be a "glasses" aspect to them from anything I recall, in the sense that we understand glasses today.

I know it's shocking to consider it, but perhaps the LDS/JS just glommed onto a random phrase from the Bible, and concocted their own meaning. Incredible, but I fear we must face it.
 
deaman said:
LOL!

No, I meant believers, actually using lots, to determine something or other.
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If you Google this subject, you'll find that it occurs often. It would appear that casting lots was considered in many cases not a gambling action, but a way of ensuring fairness in choices, as it has been since. Who has to guard the temple, or do some dirty job? Draw straws, cast lots.

Of course the biblical spinmeisters find a way of suggesting that when done right this reveal's God's plan, while done wrong it is just gambling. As usual reverse logic tells us which it was.
 
Straight from the (Ancient American) horses mouth. (1Nephu 3:11):

10 And it came to pass that when we had gone up to the land of Jerusalem, I and my brethren did consult one with another.

11 And we acast lots—who of us should go in unto the house of Laban. And it came to pass that the lot fell upon Laman; and Laman went in unto the house of Laban, and he talked with him as he sat in his house.

Somebody's gonna get a lumpin'!
 
deaman said:
LOL!

No, I meant believers, actually using lots, to determine something or other.
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Well they put that story in the NT to fulfill an OT "prophecy".

Here's some info on the bible and casting lots:




Question: "What was the practice of casting lots?"

Answer: The practice of casting lots is mentioned 70 times in the Old Testament and seven times in the New Testament. In spite of the many references to casting lots in the Old Testament, nothing is known about the actual lots themselves. They could have been sticks of various lengths, flat stones like coins, or some kind of dice; but their exact nature is unknown. The closest modern practice to casting lots is likely flipping a coin.

The practice of casting lots occurs most often in connection with the division of the land under Joshua (Joshua chapters 14-21), a procedure that God instructed the Israelites on several times in the book of Numbers (Numbers 26:55; 33:54; 34:13; 36:2). God allowed the Israelites to cast lots in order to determine His will for a given situation (Joshua 18:6-10; 1 Chronicles 24:5,31). Various offices and functions in the temple were also determined by lot (1 Chronicles 24:5, 31; 25:8-9; 26:13-14). The sailors on Jonah's ship (Jonah 1:7) also cast lots to determine who had brought God's wrath upon their ship. The eleven apostles cast lots to determine who would replace Judas (Acts 1:26). Casting lots eventually became a game people played and made wagers on. This is seen in the Roman soldiers casting lots for Jesus’ garments (Matthew 27:35).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/casting-lots.html#ixzz2huGwN0DY
 
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Empress said:
That's certainly the way it is portrayed in the Mormon church, although as Rand pointed out, earlier versions have him using his trusty seer stone in his hat, curiously similar to his method of finding buried treasure before his final career as prophet took off.

Of course, the glasses aspect of the Urim and Thummim seems to be at odds with the Biblical version of them, where they appear to be more of a casting lots item, perhaps flat discs that were marked and God would use them to indicated which of two groups contained a sinner, or which group you belonged to by genealogy, etc. There certainly doesn't seem to be a "glasses" aspect to them from anything I recall, in the sense that we understand glasses today.

I know it's shocking to consider it, but perhaps the LDS/JS just glommed onto a random phrase from the Bible, and concocted their own meaning. Incredible, but I fear we must face it.
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Yes. Especially that last part. I think that until about oh, maybe 20 years ago I'd never heard anything about the 'seer stones' at all. Gotta love the internet age. The seer stones were not really part of the RLDS tradition. I've also heard that as time went on he didn't bother using anything but the curtain.
 
So yeah. I was a big fan of Chris de Burgh back in the day. He has some pretty weird stuff.

This youtube is sort of sucky but I still like Spanish Train.

 
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tsig said:
Well they put that story in the NT to fulfill an OT "prophecy".

Here's some info on the bible and casting lots:

<snipped for space>

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/casting-lots.html#ixzz2huGwN0DY
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Nice, concise summary. The only thing I'd add is that (IME) this is usually explained as an Old Testament Thing, and We Don't Do It Like That Now. Depending who you ask, the example of drawing lots for Judas's replacement is either a Bad Thing that shows the apostles weren't perfect, or acceptable because it was before Pentecost, which gave everyone the Holy Spirit so God could talk to them directly, without needing lots, coin tosses, fleeces, ouija boards or any other sort of divination. Because divination's bad, mkay?
 
Empress said:
Wow. I lost half my IQ points reading that thread. :boggled:
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This seems to sum up the attidude of all woos:

Also, to me the moon pictures look fake. It looks like about 100 yards their is surface, and then it drops off. Ah, that is fake to me. How does the surface just drop off like that. Even with little atmosphere, it should look different in my opinion.

Hiliting the most important thing in Wooville ME!!!!
 
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