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KSH in prison since 2003? somebody wanna tell the troops that? seems they must have missed the memo, its been 3 years since we officially "arrested the mastermind"...if the perp has allready been caught, why stay and fight for 3 years?

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Do you think the US went into Iraq to catch KSM or Bin Laden. I am not making a judgement about whether or not they should be there but putting KSM or Bin Laden in jail would not be the sign it is time to leave. There are other isues such as what happens now that the US is there and Saddam is gone if the troops leave
 
angle of crash, angle of crater, angle of burned ground, witness reports, inconsistant debris field, witnesses reports being ommited and ignored by the media, inconsistancies within 9/11 report, make me tend to belive we have not been told EXACTLY what happened, to flght93.
What omniscient entity are you seeking such an explanation from? You're implying that someone knows EXACTLY what happened and is withholding the information.
 
Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke
angle of crash,
What, specifically, is inconsistent about the angle of the crash? What should it have been?

have you seen the FDR and the exact agle the plane went down?

Quote:
angle of crater,
Again waht, specifically, is wrong with the angle of the crater? What should it have been?

soon as you find the angle at wich it crashed, tell me if it looks right to you.

Quote:
angle of burned ground
Problem is? What should that "angle" have been?

notice the unburned grass around the crater? and notince the burned trees, off to the side?

Quote:
witness reports
The vast majority of which are consistent with the official story as stated, and the ones that contradict are not backed by physical evidence and most likely the result of mis-interpretation. Have any that don't follow this profile? What should have been expected for witness reports?
witness reports backed by physical evidence? you are basically saying they pick and choose witnesses...going to a ladies house and TELLING her she didnt see a jet sounds kinda fishey to me.

Quote:
inconsistant debris field
Again, specifics? What should it have looked like?
well, human remains found up to 8 miles away, clothes found 8 miles away, turbine in a lake, one burrowd into the earth...bandana that survives a vaporized plane crash.

Quote:
witnesses reports being ommited and ignored by the media
You mean all those that were not backed up by any other evidence at all? What's the problem?
hand picked witnesses

Quote:
inconsistancies within 9/11 report
Such as?
FAA, and norad reports are inconsistant with the 9/11 commisons report.

Quote:
make me tend to belive we have not been told EXACTLY what happened, to flght93.
Well, we won't ever know exactly, but we have more than enough to be sure far beyond reasonable doubt.
i guess its a question of faith.
 
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the forums are back up, and i'm posting like mad. there was even a CT who defended me when someone called me an "agitator"

i forgot how much fun this forum was.
 
Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke [qimg]http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
angle of crash,
What, specifically, is inconsistent about the angle of the crash? What should it have been?

have you seen the FDR and the exact agle the plane went down?

Quote:
angle of crater,
Again waht, specifically, is wrong with the angle of the crater? What should it have been?

soon as you find the angle at wich it crashed, tell me if it looks right to you.

Quote:
angle of burned ground
Problem is? What should that "angle" have been?

notice the unburned grass around the crater? and notince the burned trees, off to the side?

Quote:
witness reports
The vast majority of which are consistent with the official story as stated, and the ones that contradict are not backed by physical evidence and most likely the result of mis-interpretation. Have any that don't follow this profile? What should have been expected for witness reports?
witness reports backed by physical evidence? you are basically saying they pick and choose witnesses...going to a ladies house and TELLING her she didnt see a jet sounds kinda fishey to me.

Quote:
inconsistant debris field
Again, specifics? What should it have looked like?
well, human remains found up to 8 miles away, clothes found 8 miles away, turbine in a lake, one burrowd into the earth...bandana that survives a vaporized plane crash.

Quote:
witnesses reports being ommited and ignored by the media
You mean all those that were not backed up by any other evidence at all? What's the problem?
hand picked witnesses

Quote:
inconsistancies within 9/11 report
Such as?
FAA, and norad reports are inconsistant with the 9/11 commisons report.

Quote:
make me tend to belive we have not been told EXACTLY what happened, to flght93.
Well, we won't ever know exactly, but we have more than enough to be sure far beyond reasonable doubt.
i guess its a question of faith.
Do you realize you didn't answer one of his questions?
 
Do you realize you didn't answer one of his questions?
well thats how this whole thing works, its all rhetoric back and forth from both sides, carefull word games that dance around a subject, evading, avoiding, on both sides..you dont answer our questions, we dont answer yours, and it goes round and round...and its never ending..
 
Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke [qimg]http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
angle of crash,
What, specifically, is inconsistent about the angle of the crash? What should it have been?

have you seen the FDR and the exact agle the plane went down?
40 degrees iirc

angle of crater,
Again waht, specifically, is wrong with the angle of the crater? What should it have been?

soon as you find the angle at wich it crashed, tell me if it looks right to you.
Yes, it does.

Quote:
angle of burned ground
Problem is? What should that "angle" have been?

notice the unburned grass around the crater? and notince the burned trees, off to the side?
Look through the KT Plume thread in this subforum for extensive discussion on this matter.

Quote:
witness reports
The vast majority of which are consistent with the official story as stated, and the ones that contradict are not backed by physical evidence and most likely the result of mis-interpretation. Have any that don't follow this profile? What should have been expected for witness reports?
witness reports backed by physical evidence? you are basically saying they pick and choose witnesses...going to a ladies house and TELLING her she didnt see a jet sounds kinda fishey to me.
Anecdotal evidence that is inconsistent with physical evidence can not be trusted.

Quote:
inconsistant debris field
Again, specifics? What should it have looked like?
well, human remains found up to 8 miles away, clothes found 8 miles away, turbine in a lake, one burrowd into the earth...bandana that survives a vaporized plane crash.
Evidence?

Quote:
witnesses reports being ommited and ignored by the media
You mean all those that were not backed up by any other evidence at all? What's the problem?
hand picked witnesses
Anecdotal evidence that is inconsistent with physical evidence can not be trusted.


Quote:
inconsistancies within 9/11 report
Such as?
FAA, and norad reports are inconsistant with the 9/11 commisons report.
Specifics please.
 
have you seen the FDR and the exact agle the plane went down?

Yes. But you find a problem with it, so be specific. What's wrong?
soon as you find the angle at wich it crashed, tell me if it looks right to you.

Looks fine to me. What's the issue? Shoul dit have looked differently? Why?

notice the unburned grass around the crater? and notince the burned trees, off to the side?

Yes, I notice. What is the problem with this? What should it have looked like?

witness reports backed by physical evidence? you are basically saying they pick and choose witnesses...going to a ladies house and TELLING her she didnt see a jet sounds kinda fishey to me.

Just a person saying they say a plane 40' off the ground that made no noise looks fishy to anyone with knowledge of basic physics, and is easily explained by the average persons lack of understanding of how distantce is judged.

By the way, have a source on the "Tell a little old lady she didn't see a jet" bit, or are you just throwing out dirt and hoping it'll stick?

well, human remains found up to 8 miles away,

Source? Because they weren't.

clothes found 8 miles away

Source? And assuming this is true, what, specifically, is the problem?

turbine in a lake,

Source? And again, if true, what's the issue here?
one burrowd into the earth

And again, what's wrong with that?

...bandana that survives a vaporized plane crash.

Again, what, specifically, is wrong with this? Are you familiar, at all, with the dynamics of chaotic events? Explosions and exflagrations?

hand picked witnesses

Yes, the ones you choose to lend credence to are. Unless you have any meaningful support for this, it's a bald assertion on your part. They went with the witnesses who represented the majority of the stories told, in general.

FAA, and norad reports are inconsistant with the 9/11 commisons report.

IN minor details, mostly, a fact that's already been looked into, and was initially uncovered, by the Commission itself and is fairly well resolved. How does this prove Flight 93 was shot down, again?

i guess its a question of faith.

No, it's a question of reasonable evidence. ON one side, the vast majority of evidence supports the official story. Reams of physical evidence, multiple investigations, the majority of witness testimony, timelines, official documents, phone records, FDR data, etc, etc, etc.

On the other side, a minority of witnesses make conflicting statements, and a LOT of people point to the minor inconsistencies (common in any reporting of a complex event) and a lot of speculation/supposition.

Which would you consider sufficient evidence to put you away for a murder charge?
 
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well, human remains found up to 8 miles away, clothes found 8 miles away,
Wrong:
CLAIM: "Residents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains," states a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article dated Sept. 13, 2001. "Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly 6 miles from the immediate crash scene." Commenting on reports that Indian Lake residents collected debris, Think AndAsk.com speculates: "On Sept. 10, 2001, a strong cold front pushed through the area, and behind it--winds blew northerly. Since Flight 93 crashed west-southwest of Indian Lake, it was impossible for debris to fly perpendicular to wind direction. ... The FBI lied." And the significance of widespread debris? Theorists claim the plane was breaking up before it crashed. TheForbiddenKnowledge.com states bluntly: "Without a doubt, Flight 93 was shot down."
FACT: Wallace Miller, Somerset County coroner, tells PM no body parts were found in Indian Lake. Human remains were confined to a 70-acre area directly surrounding the crash site. Paper and tiny scraps of sheetmetal, however, did land in the lake. "Very light debris will fly into the air, because of the concussion," says former National Transportation Safety Board investigator Matthew McCormick. Indian Lake is less than 1.5 miles southeast of the impact crater--not 6 miles--easily within range of debris blasted skyward by the heat of the explosion from the crash. And the wind that day was northwesterly, at 9 to 12 mph, which means it was blowing from the northwest--toward Indian Lake.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=8
turbine in a lake, one burrowd into the earth...
The problem? What do you expect when a plane crashes? Why can't a turbine be lodged in the ground?

There doesn't seem anything wrong with the place where it was found either:

Roving Engine
CLAIM:
One of Flight 93's engines was found "at a considerable distance from the crash site," according to Lyle Szupinka, a state police officer on the scene who was quoted in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Offering no evidence, a posting on Rense.com claimed: "The main body of the engine ... was found miles away from the main wreckage site with damage comparable to that which a heat-seeking missile would do to an airliner."
FACT: Experts on the scene tell PM that a fan from one of the engines was recovered in a catchment basin, downhill from the crash site. Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards." Numerous crash analysts contacted by PM concur.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=7

Are you sure one landed in the lake? I haven't read that anywhere.
bandana that survives a vaporized plane crash.
The problem? Lots of crazy stuff can survive a plane crash.
 
...human remains found up to 8 miles away, clothes found 8 miles away, turbine in a lake, one burrowd into the earth...bandana that survives a vaporized plane crash.
A large plane crash is a high energy, chaotic and complex event. It would be highly unusual for nothing unusual to happen. It is these kinds of things that I would expect to find. I couldn't predict precisely the unsual events but I would always expect unusual events.
 
have you seen the FDR and the exact agle the plane went down?
40 degrees, upside down, 580 mph.

notice the unburned grass around the crater? and notince the burned trees, off to the side?
This was all covered in Killtown's "flight 93 plume thread." Photos and everything. Notice the scorched area on the ground in the direction of the plane's travel?

well, human remains found up to 8 miles away, clothes found 8 miles away, turbine in a lake, one burrowd into the earth...bandana that survives a vaporized plane crash.
You got everything wrong except for the one turbine buried in the earth. Do your homework. We've done ours.

hand picked witnesses
Your evidence?

FAA, and norad reports are inconsistant with the 9/11 commisons report.
Regarding what happened to any of the four planes? False.

i guess its a question of faith.
You guess wrong. It's a matter of fact. If you have facts to dispute and evidence to dispute them with, start a thread here and get to it. You'll learn a lot.
 
The Loose Change Forums are a place for intelligent, respectful exchange of ideas, regardless of opinion.

If you cannot comprehend that sentence, then this is not the place for you

Dylan is keeping it vague so he can have an excuse to ban anyone he wants.
 
A large plane crash is a high energy, chaotic and complex event. It would be highly unusual for nothing unusual to happen. It is these kinds of things that I would expect to find. I couldn't predict precisely the unsual events but I would always expect unusual events.

In reference to the Atta passport suspicion, I posted this at the SLC last month.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/print.php?what=article&id=243
Columbia broke up over Texas upon re-entry on February 1, 2003, after a successful 16-day scientific research mission. The accident claimed the lives of its seven crew members: commander Rick Husband, pilot Willie McCool, mission specialist Michael Anderson, mission specialist Dave Brown, mission specialist Laurel Clark, mission specialist Kalpana Chawla and payload specialist Ilan Ramon.
Chawla, a native of India where Deep Purple is extremely popular, loved the band. She traded e-mails with the band for several days while in space. Chawla took three CDs on board Columbia: Deep Purple's landmark 1972 album "Machine Head" and 1996's "Purpendicular" and Rainbow's 1978 album "Down to Earth" (Glover and Airey were both members of Rainbow at the time).
While in space, Chawla liked to wake up to Deep Purple's "Space Truckin' " from "Machine Head".
The band members were horrified and deeply saddened by Columbia's fate, and Morse immediately channeled his emotions into composing "Contact Lost" within one hour of the accident. Morse is donating his "Contact Lost" songwriting royalties to the families of the astronauts.
The CD copies of "Machine Head", "Purpendicular" and "Down to Earth" were found among the Columbia debris. NASA used them as part of special commemorative plaques honoring the seven astronauts. Chawla's widower, Jean-Pierre Harrison, has kept in touch with Morse and he presented the three plaques to Deep Purple on stage at a concert on September 23, 2003, in Mexico City, Mexico (PHOTO). The plan is to donate the "Machine Head" and "Down to Earth" plaques to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum. The "Purpendicular" plaque is being kept privatel
mexico-nasa-fernando-aceves.jpg

Was the Columbia disaster just a conspiracy to resurrect the flagging career of British heavy metal pioneers Deep Purple? I mean come on, they found not one, not two, but all three CDs?! What are the odds of that? One in 19 billion? Sounds like a conspiracy to me!
How about this doozy!
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts10...rms_030501.html
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) _ Hundreds of worms from a science experiment aboard the space shuttle Columbia have been found alive in the wreckage, NASA said Wednesday.
The worms, known as C. elegans, were found in debris in Texas several weeks ago. Technicians sorting through the debris at Kennedy Space Center in Florida didn't open the containers of worms and dead moss cells until this week.
All seven astronauts were killed when the shuttle disintegrated over Texas on Feb. 1. Columbia contained almost 60 scientific investigations.
``To my knowledge, these are the only live experiments that have been located and identified,'' said Bruce Buckingham, a NASA spokesman at the Kennedy Space Center.
The worms and moss were in the same nine-pound locker located in the mid-deck of the space shuttle. The worms were placed in six canisters, each holding eight petri dishes.
The worms, which are about the size of the tip of a pencil, were part of an experiment testing a new synthetic nutrient solution. The worms, which have a life cycle of between seven and 10 days, were four or five generations removed from the original worms placed on Columbia in January.
The C. elegans are primitive organisms that share many biological characteristics of humans. In 1999, C. elegans became the first multicellular organism to have the sequencing of its genome completed.
C. elegans have two sexes: males and hermaphrodites, which are females that produce sperm. A hermaphrodite worm can self-fertilize for the first 300 or so eggs but later usually prefers to accept sperm from males to produce a larger number of offspring.
The experiment was put together by researchers at the NASA Ames Research Center in California.
The moss, known as Ceratodon, was used to study how gravity affects cell organization. During Columbia's flight, shuttle commander Rick Husband sprayed the moss with a chemical that destroyed protein fiber. He also sprayed the moss with formaldehyde to preserve it. Seven of the eight aluminum canisters holding the moss were recovered.
The experiment was put together by an Ames Research Center researcher and Dr. Fred Sack at Ohio State University.
``The cells were surprisingly well-preserved, but we're analyzing how useful it's going to be,'' Sack said.
NASA officials said they don't know if the worms will still have any scientific value since they were supposed to have been examined and unloaded from Columbia within hours of landing
``It's pretty astonishing to get the possibility of data after all that has happened,'' Sack said. ``We never expected it. We expected a molten mass.''
 
The Loosers are back on their forum showing what idiots they are. A poster named George Hayduke started a thread on missiles at the Pentagon, because everyone knows that of course they are there.

Instead of arguing what hit the Pentagon or rather what caused the explosions there on 9/11, perhaps we should be asking how on earth the Pentagon was attacked in the first place.

On the face of it it is absurd that the Pentagon was somehow attacked. We're talking about the supreme fortress of the most technologically advanced and most powerful military force in the history of the world. We should probably conclude that the Pentagon campus was complete with automated defense systems, multiple underground missile silos, and hidden surface-to-air missile/delivery systems, all controlled and monitored by artificial intelligence, perhaps PROMIS progeny.

The shootdown of whatever it was headed for the Pentagon should have required only one person sitting at a desk and hitting the "enter" key on their keyboard when the lights start blinking red and the systems start screeching, "permission requested to destroy approaching aerial vehicle!"

In short, the Pentagon should have never been attacked.

In the end my differences with Pickering amount to little insofar as we both agree that it needs to be fully explained how the Pentagon could be attacked, especially on a day when it was apparent that the country was under attack.

Incompetence does not suffice as an explanation.


Another poster politely points out contradictory evidence that there weren't any, including linking to a paper that I wrote, which he warns is on a debunker website.

So what brilliant argument and overwhelming evidence did our fearless "researcher" counter with?

This is a "conspiracy" forum. Loose Change was a "conspiracy" movie. And I am here to gather information related to my research. You are attempting to thwart my efforts and I think it is clear that such behavior is mandated by your agenda.
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=62

Yeah, that is the mark of a true researcher, any evidence that you are wrong is merely an attempt to "thwart" your efforts.
 
On the face of it it is absurd that the Pentagon was somehow attacked. We're talking about the supreme fortress of the most technologically advanced and most powerful military force in the history of the world. We should probably conclude that the Pentagon campus was complete with automated defense systems, multiple underground missile silos, and hidden surface-to-air missile/delivery systems, all controlled and monitored by artificial intelligence, perhaps PROMIS progeny.
This is so, so sad. There's nothing sadder than believing your own hype.
 
This is so, so sad. There's nothing sadder than believing your own hype.

This part is even more humorous:

The DoD is at least 50 years ahead of the curve technology-wise. To insist otherwise is to engage in pure ignorance. DoD was using cell phones during WWII.

Further, to insist that while the DoD is 50 years ahead of the curve technology-wise and meanwhile the Pentagon would not have employed some of that technology in its own defense is to spread disinformation.

My grandfather never told me those stories about the war. He always talked about how he froze through the Battle of the Bulge with nothing but one army blanket to keep him warm. Why didn't he just use his cell phone to order a down sleeping bag from Amazon.com and have it fedex'ed to him?
 
This part is even more humorous:



My grandfather never told me those stories about the war. He always talked about how he froze through the Battle of the Bulge with nothing but one army blanket to keep him warm. Why didn't he just use his cell phone to order a down sleeping bag from Amazon.com and have it fedex'ed to him?

*snicker*

Yeah.

Bet that's why about 50% of the computers in the south-central region of the Army Reserve are low-end Celerons (even some Pentium and Pentium II processors in there, production machines).
 

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