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Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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No, you've done "strawman" calculations that have little if anything to do with me or my beliefs because you never ask me any real questions about my beliefs.

I've asked you plenty of real questions. You just have a habit of not answering them. I based my calculations on the available information, and you never provided me with any alternate information.

Why should a strawman calculations make any difference to me or my beliefs Zig?

At this point, I have no reason to believe that any calculations will ever make any difference to you. You never know what they mean. So every calculation becomes a "strawman", because none of your arguments were ever quantitative to begin with. You don't do quantitative. You can't do quantitative.

Have you read Cosmic Plasma yet Zig? Peratt's book? Anything relevant to plasma physics theory from an EU orientation?

I've read your website. That was... quite an education.
 
FYI Ben, you need to think more in terms of how galaxies and galaxy clusters are attached the the intergalactic plasma sheet that contains most of the mass of the universe. The individual stars are simply flotsum and jetsum in the mix of what is ultimately a series of objects embedded in an *accelerating* plasma sheet. The plasma sheet isn't simply 'moving', it's actively accelerating over time.
 
Name the force that easily accelerates plasma, heats it to millions of degrees and might interact with cathode suns and "black holes" with a charge?
That is ignorant of you: The force that accelerates plasma and heats it to millions of degrees is electromagnetism.
There is no such thing as "cathode suns".
There may be charged black holes and the forces there are gravity and electromagnetism

Electromagnetism does not pin stars to your imaginary sheet of plasma.
The force on stars is too small:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=4355
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=4358
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=4363
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=4365

A moving plasma does not drag stars with it:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=4372
 
I've asked you plenty of real questions. You just have a habit of not answering them. I based my calculations on the available information, and you never provided me with any alternate information.

Sure I have. I've provided a whole website to read.

At this point, I have no reason to believe that any calculations will ever make any difference to you.

Well, that would just be silly since my opinions do change over time and some calculations seem pretty valid to me, whereas others do not.

You never know what they mean.

You keep assuming things about me, and making false accusations. Does that make you feel better about yourself somehow?

So every calculation becomes a "strawman", because none of your arguments were ever quantitative to begin with. You don't do quantitative. You can't do quantitative.

I've provided you folks with REAMS of quantified materials to read by Alfven. To date nobody here has found a mathematical flaw in any of Alfven's work. I've even given you credit where credit is due and I've agreed with you that a sun is probably internally rather than externally powered when I felt your calculations were valid. You don't seem to hear or acknowledge any of that stuff.

I've read your website. That was... quite an education.

Well, it's going to get a major upgrade somewhere around the end of summer to include a lot of SDO materials. I'm really looking forward to this active cycle. Already there is clear satellite evidence showing that mass and discharge material comes and and through the photosphere just as Birkeland's model predicts.
 
Not only are the suns and galaxies bound to the intergalactic plasmas by gravity

Nope. I just did the math. Gravity can pull you towards the average barycenter of a plasma/gas/etc. It does not pull you in the direction of a flow; it does not "bind" things together like a rigid body.

(A globular cluster is a good explicit example. Lots of moving objects; lots of mass; lots of gravitational force. No flow direction; everything is whizzing around on a random orbit around the barycenter.)

they are also bound by electromagnetic influences.

Nope. Electromagnetic influences act via the Lorentz force and the Coulomb force. The net Lorentz force on the Sun is the ISM's B field times the Sun's net charge, times the Sun's velocity relative to the B source. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE DONE THAT PRODUCT FOR YOU?


There is no "frictionless" aspect involved. The gravitational changes in the sheet, as well as the EM changes in the sheet will have an influence on charged objects that are embedded in the sheet.

The influence according to the actual force laws is (a) net zero from gravity and (b) a very tiny force due to E&M. Congratulations, your "friction" has explained 0.000000000001 of the net acceleration of the Sun. The Sun is weakly coupled to the ISM, and whatever direction the ISM is moving, it mostly blows past the Sun without being strong enough to pull it along.

Where's the other 0.999999999999999 x 10^20 Newtons coming from, Michael? Not gravity, not E&M, not rubber bands ...
 
Well, that would just be silly since my opinions do change over time and some calculations seem pretty valid to me, whereas others do not.

Since you don't have the math skills to understand any but the most trivial, one wonders what makes the difference....
 
FYI Ben, you need to think more in terms of how galaxies and galaxy clusters are attached the the intergalactic plasma sheet that contains most of the mass of the universe. The individual stars are simply flotsum and jetsum in the mix of what is ultimately a series of objects embedded in an *accelerating* plasma sheet. The plasma sheet isn't simply 'moving', it's actively accelerating over time.

When you're watching the Indy 500, the Earth's atmosphere does outweigh the tiny, insignificant cars moving around the racetrack and the parking lot. Nonetheless, the motion of the cars cannot by accounted for by pretending that they simply move along with the atmosphere.
 
Nope. I just did the math. Gravity can pull you towards the average barycenter of a plasma/gas/etc. It does not pull you in the direction of a flow; it does not "bind" things together like a rigid body.

Please stop thinking of it only as a "direction of flow" but rather a "direction of acceleration".

(A globular cluster is a good explicit example. Lots of moving objects; lots of mass; lots of gravitational force. No flow direction; everything is whizzing around on a random orbit around the barycenter.)

Again, I think you need to think more in terms of gravity acting as both a binding local force, and also a force of acceleration as the mass in the sheet accelerates over time and 'drags' the embedded material with it.

Nope. Electromagnetic influences act via the Lorentz force and the Coulomb force. The net Lorentz force on the Sun is the ISM's B field times the Sun's net charge, times the Sun's velocity relative to the B source. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE DONE THAT PRODUCT FOR YOU?

It's just ONE of the TWO binding forces Ben. How about gravitational changes due to an acceleration of the intergalactic plasmas?

The influence according to the actual force laws is (a) net zero from gravity and (b) a very tiny force due to E&M. Congratulations, your "friction" has explained 0.000000000001 of the net acceleration of the Sun.

Great. How about the gravitational "friction"?

The Sun is weakly coupled to the ISM, and whatever direction the ISM is moving, it mostly blows past the Sun without being strong enough to pull it along.

But the change in mass from one position to another over time CAN have an influence on the sun.

Where's the other 0.999999999999999 x 10^20 Newtons coming from, Michael? Not gravity, not E&M, not rubber bands ...

Your basic assumption seems to be that the sheet simply "flows". It "accelerates", it doesn't simply "flow". Gravity will bind the suns and galaxies to the accelerating plasma sheet just as surely (more surely) than EM influences. There is no "frictionless" aspect here Ben.
 
Since you don't have the math skills to understand any but the most trivial, one wonders what makes the difference....

You are again resorting to attacking the messenger, even though I've already made it clear to you that I've studied calculus. Your opinions are therefore devalued when you say stuff like this to me. I have little faith that you read or respond logically to anything I say.
 
Ben's basic assumption is flawed. Not only are the suns and galaxies bound to the intergalactic plasmas by gravity, they are also bound by electromagnetic influences. There is no "frictionless" aspect involved. The gravitational changes in the sheet, as well as the EM changes in the sheet will have an influence on charged objects that are embedded in the sheet.
Wrong: ben m's basic assumption is that the laws that we have for gravity and electromagnetism are correct.

Your basic assumption is that you can make up anything you like.

The universe says that you are wrong: The Sleeping Beauty Galaxy
In an unexpected twist, recent observations have shown that the gas in the outer regions of this photogenic spiral is rotating in the opposite direction from all of the stars!
 
You are again resorting to attacking the messenger, even though I've already made it clear to you that I've studied calculus.

You haven't made that clear at all. In fact, you haven't even made your ability to do arithmetic clear. You can make all the claims you want to about your abilities, yet strangely, you never actually demonstrate them. One wonders why you never do calculations if you're really able to do them.

And it isn't as a "messenger" that I'm attacking you. I'm attacking you for refusing to engage in the actual business of physics. Which, despite all your protestations, IS the process of doing calculations. You refuse to engage in that endeavor. You actively avoid it at every turn. And thus, you make real debate on the subject impossible. I will not grant you immunity for this just because you complain that I'm "attacking the messenger". To attack the messenger, there would need to be a message. And the entire problem here is that, ultimately, there IS no message. It's all just noise.

I have little faith that you read or respond logically to anything I say.

Of course not. But then, you actually thought that the stability of a small water bubble someone indicated something about the gravitational stress of a sun-sized iron shell. So I'm not exactly concerned with your concept of what's logical and what is not.
 
Please stop thinking of it only as a "direction of flow" but rather a "direction of acceleration".

Nope.

a) What force are we talking about? I don't care what direction it's in unless its magnitude is in the ballpark of 10^20 Newtons.

b) You're really making things up. Neither gravity, nor the Lorentz force, nor the Coulomb force, have a "force acts in direction of acceleration of source" behavior. If your mental picture includes such a force, your mental picture is wrong.

Again, I think you need to think more in terms of gravity acting as both a binding local force, and also a force of acceleration as the mass in the sheet accelerates over time and 'drags' the embedded material with it.

So you're saying Newton's Law is wrong, even as an approximation.

It's just ONE of the TWO binding forces Ben. How about gravitational changes due to an acceleration of the intergalactic plasmas?

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Great. How about the gravitational "friction"?

No such thing. F= GMm/r^2 rhat. No friction term. (I would mention "Dynamical friction" but it (a) is too complicated for you to understand and (b) doesn't do what you want it to do.)

But the change in mass from one position to another over time CAN have an influence on the sun.

Not in a way that drags the Sun along with the ISM.

Your basic assumption seems to be that the sheet simply "flows". It "accelerates", it doesn't simply "flow". Gravity will bind the suns and galaxies to the accelerating plasma sheet just as surely (more surely) than EM influences. There is no "frictionless" aspect here Ben.

It is hard to imagine a worse description of gravity without adding The Healing Power of Crystals.
 
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That is because gravity shows up on Earth and Newtonian mechanics still has practical value. Dark energy only shows up in one creation mythos and has no practical value outside of that singular creation story.
I'll repeat. There is no creation mythos.

Of course it is. You all think that the universe had a "beginning" where all matter and energy came from a singular "clump".
Err. Nope. I think there was a time in the past when the density of "our part" of the Universe was so high that the equations we have to describe it break down.

You mean besides that last study I cited? Getting you folks to acknowledge information seems to be the big "trick" around here.
You didn't understand the last study you cited.

There are however several invisible sky entities that have no useful or practical value outside of your creation myth.
Nope. No invisible sky entities. You appear to be delusional.

That constant has absolutely nothing to do with "dark energy" since you can't get "dark energy" to show up in a lab or have any effect on matter in a lab.
What on Earth are you talking about. The L in LCDM stands for lambda. As in the cosmological constant.

That constant is no more related to 'dark energy' than it's related to the EM field. The only difference is that an EM field is "real" whereas your 'invisible sky entity" is not.
You really don't have the slightest idea about actual, real-life cosmology do you?

Oh boloney. You folks expected the universe to be slowing down over time. It wasn't. You then added liberal doses of an invisible sky deity named "dark energy" that has no practical value outside of your "creation religion".
We didn't add invisible doses of anything. That your mind making nonsense phrases up again because you can't construct a scientific argument. Our best estimate of lambda has changed as our measurement techniques have changed. That's all that really happened. This sort of thing happens all the time. It added with G too. I don't here you ranting that we should give up G too.

I could stuff "magic invisible Michael Mozina energy" in there and accomplish the same feat. So what? Does that mean "magic invisible Michael Mozina energy" did it?
If IMME is consistent with Einstein's Field Equations then quite possibly. If not, then no. So, is IMME consistent with the EFEs?

That's pure denial actually. Mainstream theory has "failed" pretty much every single "prediction" it's ever made.
Nope. For example, the predictions of the properties of the CMBR give some of the most astounding matches to experiment ever observed in physic (IMHO at least).

The last failure was related to the mainstream's assumption that the universe was "slowing down" over time. When you discovered that was not the case, you folks stuffed it full of "dark evil energies".
A) No. The most popular opinion is that the easiest solution is to adjust the cosmological constant. In much the same way that the gravitational constant has been adjusted over the years when better measurements have come along.
B) "dark evil energies" is a term entirely of your own invention. Its very stupid and childish. Do not put it in quotation marks as if to suggest it is an accepted term. It isn't. It just highlights your inability to make a scientific argument.

You simply 'make up" the properties of this stuff as you go.
Remember:
1) Observe.
2) Theorize
3) Compare.
This is normal science.

Unfortunately you "missed" again, and the "threads" of spacetime are longer than you 'predicted'. Now you need dark energy to not only do a repulsive trick, it also has to 'pool' in some places and not in others. :) The whole thing is based on absurd "ad hoc" properties galore!
Ho would you know! You think its possible for the Sun to have an iron shell. You have no comprehension of mechanics, thermodynamics, relativity, Maxwell's equations or just about anything in physics. I'm not even sure you understand order of magnitudes.

That is because unlike dark sky entities, particle physics theory has "practical" value here on Earth. The fact we can "split" atoms helps heat my home.
This has little relevance to the Standard model. Try again.

Your mythical sky beings have no effect on me whatsoever.
How many times. I do not have any mythical sky beings. That is entirely a delusion of your own making.

No, actually there's a "trilogy" of them, Inflation father (now deceased and not officially included in LCDM mind you), dark matter sun, and dark energy holy ghost.
What the hell are you talking about? This is a delusion entirely of your own making Michael.

Not until you start stuffing them with "magic energy".
Nobody has. LCDM = Lambda cold dark matter. Lambda = the lambda in the EFEs. If you have a problem with lambda you have a problem with the EFEs. If you do not have a problem with lambda then you do not have a problem with dark energy.

No, I did not. I suggested it had a solid *CRUST* and that the majority of the sun was iron in terms of it's overall mass.
That really would be a Sun of special creation.

The idea it has a "solid iron shell" has nothing to do with me or my beliefs. They are a "dumbed down" strawman that is repeated often by your side.
Can you explain to me the difference between a shell and a crust?

How does the "dark energy Jesus" affect my life in a "tangible" way here and now?
How on Earth could I possibly know. The dark energy Jesus (again where the hell are you quoting from) is, as far as I know, a product of your imagination. Much like Rudie the Rhubarb mine is a product of my imagination about thirty seconds ago. I reckon he'd look great with shades and a banana surfboard. What do you think?

You folks really should read Cosmic Plasma and Peratt's book too, but alas I doubt that will ever happen.
Why would I read books which were shown to be wrong decades ago? There's plenty of not blatantly wrong stuff for me to read out there.

Would you prefer one of Alfven's paper where he picks on all "prophet" forms of astrophysics?
Why? Alfven had an understanding of GR that was worse than a final year physics degree student's.
 
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Nope.

a) What force are we talking about? I don't care what direction it's in unless its magnitude is in the ballpark of 10^20 Newtons.

b) You're really making things up. Neither gravity, nor the Lorentz force, nor the Coulomb force, have a "force acts in direction of acceleration of source" behavior. If your mental picture includes such a force, your mental picture is wrong.

I think what he's saying is that if the plasma is being accelerated somewhere (lets just say it is for now), then the average barycenter of that plasma is going to move, and the stuff that's moving around that barycenter is going to move along for the ride (the other stuff that isn't being accelerated by whatever is accelerating the plasma).

That's what I understood him to be saying anyway.
 
I think what he's saying is that if the plasma is being accelerated somewhere (lets just say it is for now), then the average barycenter of that plasma is going to move, and the stuff that's moving around that barycenter is going to move along for the ride (the other stuff that isn't being accelerated by whatever is accelerating the plasma).

That's what I understood him to be saying anyway.
Michael Mozina's ignorance of science does lead him to make fairly incoherent statements, but what he seems to be saying is that a moving plasma will drag a star within it gravitationally.

This is obviously wrong. The net gravitational force on that star is the sum of the forces from the plasma. There is an equal amount of plasma in all directions. The net force is thus zero (this is analogous to the hollow sphere solution where the force on a test mass within the sphere is always zero).
It does not matter what the motion of the plasma is - it can be constant, accelerating or dancing the fandango :D - the net force is zero.

However if the plasma is inhomogeneous, you could have a clump of denser plasma moving past the star. You could also have a clump of less dense plasma moving past the star. Random clumps = no net force again.
 
I think what he's saying is that if the plasma is being accelerated somewhere (lets just say it is for now), then the average barycenter of that plasma is going to move, and the stuff that's moving around that barycenter is going to move along for the ride (the other stuff that isn't being accelerated by whatever is accelerating the plasma).

That's what I understood him to be saying anyway.

Hard to tell, isn't it? The only thing the Sun is moving around is the Galactic Center.

If Mozina wants to explain the Milky Way by saying that there's a lot of extra mass between us and the Galactic Center, and we're gravitationally accelerated towards it, that's a heck of a lot better than the rest of his argument. There is a lot of mass between us and the Galactic Center! We are moving towards it! This is standard astrophysics, of course, and it turns out that much of this mass has to be not collisional, not light absorbing, not light radiating, and not bunched-up-into-compact-objects-that-would-show-up-in-microlensing. And there's not the slightest bit of EU/PC in it, since is barycenter fundamentally (cons. of mom) cannot be moved---electromagnetically, gravitationally, or otherwise---by forces internal to the galaxy.

I tried to come up with a sci-fi scenario in which each star has its own personal, undetectable Gravitational Tugboat, parked just SagA*-wards of it---but not so close as to disrupt planets---and carefully steered around the Galaxy under the control of plasma ropes so as to provide a perfect simulacrum of central-force motion without an actual central force. And the simulacrum extends to obscure details like vertical oscillation in and out of the Milky Way disk (it may look like disk gravity, but it's actually the tugboats moving up and down), and tidal disruption of SagDEG (nope, the tugboats were programmed to separate like that) and so on. Until Matt Damon got a hold of the angel's magic fedora and tried to adjust the program! (ETA: Nobody else saw that movie, did they?)

More fun calculations: where would a 1-solar-mass gravity tug have to be to exert a 10^20 N force? Pretty close: about 5000AU, or 0.1 light year. Um, yeah, that's inside the Oort cloud. That's 50 times closer than Proxima Centauri. We'd have noticed that, dude. A Jupiter mass tug would have to be around the Kuiper Belt. Tell me again what barycenter, exactly, between us and SagA*, we're getting pulled towards, Michael?
 
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Mozina & Math & Physics

And it isn't as a "messenger" that I'm attacking you. I'm attacking you for refusing to engage in the actual business of physics. Which, despite all your protestations, IS the process of doing calculations. You refuse to engage in that endeavor. You actively avoid it at every turn. And thus, you make real debate on the subject impossible. I will not grant you immunity for this just because you complain that I'm "attacking the messenger". To attack the messenger, there would need to be a message. And the entire problem here is that, ultimately, there IS no message. It's all just noise.
I am, at the moment, on vacation hundreds of miles from home, with far better things to do than play a major role around here. However, this is an opportunity I cannot pass up.

I think Ziggurat has made the most important point of all, and one that has been made before. Mozina never does physics, and in any case is already on record as denying the validity of science in general. He always argues in prose, making word-pictures limited only by fantasy and imagination, but never ever grounded in reality. Mozina simply fails the test of physics every time.
 
Spiral galaxies show the sort of coherent rotation of stars within them that you might just about think a model based on some bulk flow of a fluid might fit (if you ignored a lot of other observations and were just setting out on the task of figuring out what was going on).

Elliptical galaxies don't. The stars just move about pretty much at random, without much coherency in their orbits. I think this kills any idea that the stars are 'along for the ride'.
 
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