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Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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Ben, you keep ignoring the fact that it doesn't have to act directly upon the stars themselves, just the "plasmas" between them! When can I expect you to acknowledge that point?

I can show you how and where the EM field interacts with the solar atmosphere. Where and how does "dark energy" act on anything?

Bennie bennie, don't you understand, this highly dilute interstellar plasma moves a bit and extremely heavy stars move with it. It seems that Mozina's electric universe now also goes into homeopathy!

Physics, what physics?
 
Scroll up, we just had a whole conversation about it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7230252&postcount=4355
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7230329&postcount=4358
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7230635&postcount=4363
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7230704&postcount=4365

At the end of this conversation, in which I made it as clear as possible that "force acting on interstellar plasma" does not magically drag stars with it, I actually bumped the entire thread to reemphasize this point and try to get a response from you.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7281333&postcount=4372

But now I'm getting the "why won't you acknowledge X" treatment AGAIN as if it never happened. For crying out loud.
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FYI, Ben, your position is based on pure unadulterated denial of pretty much everything I've said:

OK, Michael, I identified the force exerted on the sail by this "wind". A 8m/s wind exerts a 10 pascal pressure gradient on a sailboat, and that's the force that moves it. Answer the question already: what is the actual force that's felt by the Sun, and how does your "wind" actually exert that force?

I would like to remind you that a minute ago you thought that winds dragged stuff along by "gravity". That was utter baloney, gravity doesn't do that.

Gravity does do that ben. It doesn't care whether the mass that is being moved is mostly inside of suns, or mostly inside of plasma that is located between the galaxies. Once the primary mass body is "moved", the rest of the "stuff" will 'follow along' if only via gravity.

But it was a start: at least you recognized that things accelerate due to actual forces, they don't just feel a vague urge to follow local velocity vector fields. Are you going to try again or not?

I am trying Ben. I'm trying to get you to acknowledge that "space" doesn't simply "expand" too. Something, some "actual force" must be at work *if* the universe is indeed accelerating.
 
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Bennie bennie, don't you understand, this highly dilute interstellar plasma moves a bit and extremely heavy stars move with it.

No, more like "intergalactic plasmas" move a bit and the galaxies move with them.

It seems that Mozina's electric universe now also goes into homeopathy!

Physics, what physics?

That is really ironic considering the fact that the EM field has a known effect on plasmas, including the ability to "accelerate" them, whereas "dark energy" doesn't do squat in a real experiment, not ever.
 
Gravity does do that ben. It doesn't care whether the mass that is being moved is mostly inside of suns, or mostly inside of plasma that is located between the galaxies. Once the primary mass body is "moved", the rest of the "stuff" will 'follow along' if only via gravity.

Nope. Flat wrong. The force of gravity is F = GMm/r^2, in the direction pointing towards the attractor. The force doesn't depend on the velocity of the attractor. It doesn't depend on the relative velocity of the object and the attractor.

If you immerse the Sun in a tube of stationary gas/plasma, versus a tube of fast-moving gas/plasma of the same dimensions and density, the gravitational force is exactly the same.

Do the math.
 
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We never let Newtonian mechanics die a natural death based on a number of failed predictions.

That is because gravity shows up on Earth and Newtonian mechanics still has practical value. Dark energy only shows up in one creation mythos and has no practical value outside of that singular creation story.

Not the LCDM is
a) a creation mythos

Of course it is. You all think that the universe had a "beginning" where all matter and energy came from a singular "clump".

or
b) has failed any predictions.

You mean besides that last study I cited? Getting you folks to acknowledge information seems to be the big "trick" around here.

There are no gods in LCDM. That is a delusion entirely of your own making.

There are however several invisible sky entities that have no useful or practical value outside of your creation myth.

The cosmological constant dates from the 1910's. That's nearly a century ago.

That constant has absolutely nothing to do with "dark energy" since you can't get "dark energy" to show up in a lab or have any effect on matter in a lab. That constant is no more related to 'dark energy' than it's related to the EM field. The only difference is that an EM field is "real" whereas your 'invisible sky entity" is not.

Its not a matter of make believe with math. It's a matter of comparing prediction with observation. Just like any other branch of physics. This segregation is one entirely of your own making.

Oh boloney. You folks expected the universe to be slowing down over time. It wasn't. You then added liberal doses of an invisible sky deity named "dark energy" that has no practical value outside of your "creation religion".

That is, of course, flat-out false. Unless of course you believe Einstein's field equations and the entirety of general relativity are a "creation mythos". Do you? Or you just unaware that the LCDM is based on a set of solutions to the EFEs?

I could stuff "magic invisible Michael Mozina energy" in there and accomplish the same feat. So what? Does that mean "magic invisible Michael Mozina energy" did it?

Why would we? They have passed many tests and not failed any.

That's pure denial actually. Mainstream theory has "failed" pretty much every single "prediction" it's ever made. The last failure was related to the mainstream's assumption that the universe was "slowing down" over time. When you discovered that was not the case, you folks stuffed it full of "dark evil energies". You simply 'make up" the properties of this stuff as you go. Unfortunately you "missed" again, and the "threads" of spacetime are longer than you 'predicted'. Now you need dark energy to not only do a repulsive trick, it also has to 'pool' in some places and not in others. :) The whole thing is based on absurd "ad hoc" properties galore!

Nonsense. There are far fewer free parameters in LCDM than the standard model of particle physics. I don't hear you objecting much to that.

That is because unlike dark sky entities, particle physics theory has "practical" value here on Earth. The fact we can "split" atoms helps heat my home. Your mythical sky beings have no effect on me whatsoever.

Fail. There is not a single God in LCDM.

No, actually there's a "trilogy" of them, Inflation father (now deceased and not officially included in LCDM mind you), dark matter sun, and dark energy holy ghost.

The math is basically the Einstein field equations. You got a problem with them?

Not until you start stuffing them with "magic energy".

You suggested it had a solid iron shell!

No, I did not. I suggested it had a solid *CRUST* and that the majority of the sun was iron in terms of it's overall mass.

Trust me. There is absolutely no need to dumb down the assertion that the Sun has a solid iron shell to make it sound ridiculous.

The idea it has a "solid iron shell" has nothing to do with me or my beliefs. They are a "dumbed down" strawman that is repeated often by your side.

Says the person who debates science by pretending theories he doesn't like have Gods in them...:rolleyes:

How does the "dark energy Jesus" affect my life in a "tangible" way here and now?

You seriously need to learn some basic mechanics and electromagnetism.

You folks really should read Cosmic Plasma and Peratt's book too, but alas I doubt that will ever happen.

The idea that is a creation mythos is one of your own making due entirely, it would seem, to your complete inability to make a scientific argument.

Would you prefer one of Alfven's paper where he picks on all "prophet" forms of astrophysics?

The calls are piling up on me now. I'll see if there was anything else worth responding to when I get a chance.
 
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It does depend on the location of the attractor.

DO THE MATH. The location dependence does not translate into a "drag" force. Like I said: a moving bath of matter exerts the exact same gravitational force as a stationary bath.

A moving pointlike attractor does exert a time-varying force, but this force does not have a component pointing in the direction of the attractor's velocity. DO THE MATH. Consider a blob of gas flying past the Sun in a straight line from left to right. It spends a while to our left, pulling us leftwards, and then spends a while to our right, pulling us rightwards. The leftwards acceleration exactly cancels the rightwards acceleration, via conservation of momentum, so that the total impulse during the flyby is zero.
 
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Try this analogy Ben:

Imagine a "rubber sheet" composed of plasmas with small "objects" embedded in the sheet. When we "stretch' the plasma sheet, the objects embedded in the sheet "spread out" and get further apart. That's all that's happening IMO.
 
Try this analogy Ben:

Imagine a "rubber sheet" composed of plasmas with small "objects" embedded in the sheet. When we "stretch' the plasma sheet, the objects embedded in the sheet "spread out" and get further apart. That's all that's happening IMO.

Scroll up and reread the rubber sheet discussion we just had. Do I need to tattoo this on your hand?

An object in a rubber sheet has to be attached to the sheet by a link that exerts a force. A rubber sheet with a (frictionless) ice cube sitting on it can stretch and move all it likes, but it doesn't accelerate the ice cube. F=ma, Michael. If you can't find a force, you can't get an acceleration. F=MA.

An object attached to the sheet by an mechanical bond feels elastic, mechanical forces. Sure, if there are molecules of rubber exerting a force, you can get an acceleration. F=MA.

If you want to picture the interstellar medium as a rubber sheet, HOW IS THE SUN ATTACHED TO THE SHEET? I don't see any big staples or rubber bands or Super Glue holding them together.

NAME THE FORCE.
 
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Scroll up and reread the rubber sheet discussion we just had. Do I need to tattoo this on your hand?

An object in a rubber sheet has to be attached to the sheet by a link that exerts a force. A rubber sheet with a (frictionless) ice cube sitting on it can stretch and move all it likes, but it doesn't accelerate the ice cube. F=ma, Michael. If you can't find a force, you can't get an acceleration. F=MA.

An object attached to the sheet by an mechanical bond feels elastic, mechanical forces. Sure, if there are molecules of rubber exerting a force, you can get an acceleration. F=MA.

If you want to picture the interstellar medium as a rubber sheet, HOW IS THE SUN ATTACHED TO THE SHEET? I don't see any big staples or rubber bands or Super Glue holding them together.

NAME THE FORCE.

Name the force that easily accelerates plasma, heats it to millions of degrees and might interact with cathode suns and "black holes" with a charge?
 
Not so. I've done plenty of calculations to demonstrate why your ideas are ridiculous, quite independent of you.

No, you've done "strawman" calculations that have little if anything to do with me or my beliefs because you never ask me any real questions about my beliefs.

But it never makes any difference.

Why should a strawman calculations make any difference to me or my beliefs Zig?

You can't challenge those calculations, or perform your own, because you don't understand the math OR the physics.

Have you read Cosmic Plasma yet Zig? Peratt's book? Anything relevant to plasma physics theory from an EU orientation?

So you simply ignore it. You are the one who can't actually address the substance here, not me, or ben, or sol, or GeeMack, or Tubbythin, etc.

IMO you do ben, sol and Tubbythin a great disservice by including GM in that list. "Electrical Discharges? What discharges?" Please!
 
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Name the force that easily accelerates plasma, heats it to millions of degrees

Electromagnetism accelerates plasma; both the Coulomb force and the Lorentz force couple strongly to ions and electrons adequately to move thin plasmas around as observed in: tokamaks, lightning bolts, microwaves, vacuum tubes, aurorae, the solar wind, solar flares, etc.

Your turn. Name a force that provides a 10^20 Newton force between the ISM and the Sun.
 
Ben's basic assumption is flawed. Not only are the suns and galaxies bound to the intergalactic plasmas by gravity, they are also bound by electromagnetic influences. There is no "frictionless" aspect involved. The gravitational changes in the sheet, as well as the EM changes in the sheet will have an influence on charged objects that are embedded in the sheet.
 
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If we "stretch" the intergalactic plasma sheet, the distance between objects changes over time and the objects "spread out" over time. The sheet in this case is composed of a plasma, and the plasmas do the actual movement over time. The objects embedded in the sheet are simply along for the ride, bound both gravitationally and electromagnetically to the expanding sheet.
 
Ben's basic assumption is flawed. Not only are the suns and galaxies bound to the intergalactic plasmas by gravity, they are also bound by electromagnetic influences. There is no "frictionless" aspect involved. The gravitational changes in the sheet, as well as the EM changes in the sheet will have an influence on charged objects that are embedded in the sheet.


More unqualified assertions of unsupported nonsense.
 
If we "stretch" the intergalactic plasma sheet, the distance between objects changes over time and the objects "spread out" over time. The sheet in this case is composed of a plasma, and the plasmas do the actual movement over time. The objects embedded in the sheet are simply along for the ride, bound both gravitationally and electromagnetically to the expanding sheet.


More unqualified assertions of unsupported nonsense? Or is there any objective quantitative support for this claim?
 
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