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Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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After all we now see a conversation that has lasted over a year and a half, over 100 pages, over 4000 posts. Mozina in all that time has failed to make a single cogent argument on any point, on or off topic (and we are once again way off topic when it comes to cosmology).
Yeah, but it's been a hell of an entertaining ride.

I guess the elucidation of scientific context for those in the lurking audience may be the only socially redeeming aspect of this thread, and others like it.
That too.
 
Those moving electrons constitute the electric current in the wire. As an aside, you note that electrons have negative charge and so one might naturally think of them as a negative current. But the standard practice in the electricity and electrical engineering fields is to assume positive current.

The holes between the electrons move the correct way ;)
 
The following may have come up before, but if so I missed it (and would like some pointers to where it has, if anyone knows of such).

MM is a big fan of Birkeland and his experiments. He is also enamored with highly processed data presented as images, from SOHO, STEREO, etc.

Since Birkeland's time, thousands, perhaps millions, of plasma experiments have been done, in labs, under controlled conditions. The results of these experiments have been written up and published in many peer-reviewed journals.

Has MM ever referenced any of these empirical experiments? I don't recall any.

MM is, by his own words, a very big fan of empirical, lab-based, controlled experiments. He has spent, very likely, thousands of hours writing posts to internet discussion fora, and creating (and maintaining) his website.

Not once have I seen any suggestion, from MM, that he is willing to invest his time and energy in his own, lab-based, controlled experiments ... not even ones to replicate (and extend) Birkeland's.

Why?

I mean, for someone so apparently passionate about empirical, controlled experiments in the lab, what accounts for the apparent complete absence of even a hint of a desire to do any such experiments? Or even to find out which, among the many thousand, empirical, controlled, lab-based plasma experiments that have been reported, may be relevant to his beliefs?
 
The opening post...

After reading through the plasma cosmology thread today, I'm curious how mainstream Lambda theory would hold up to the same level of scrutiny? What exactly does Lambda-CDM theory "predict" without the use of unfalsifiable and unverifiable entities?

For instance, what empirical evidence supports the idea of inflation? No other known vector or scalar field found in nature will retain near constant density over several exponential increases in volume. The presumed homogeneous layout of matter used to be inflation's primary claim to fame, yet recent observations of "dark flows" would suggest that matter is not homogeneously distributed as "predicted" by inflation. What empirical evidence from controlled experiments demonstrates that inflation even exists in nature?

Dark energy? What is that? How do I get some? What controlled empirical test demonstrates it has any effect on nature?

What about all the so called "properties" of dark matter? How do we verify or falsify these ideas?

In what tangible and demonstrateable way is Lambda-CDM theory any "better" than any other cosmology theory?


... was addressed in its entirety by sol invictus in post number four...

First, there is nothing in Lambda-CDM that is unfalsifiable or unverifiable.

Second, plasma cosmology (at least as presented in that thread) is simply wrong. It is ruled out by, for example, the existence of the sun.

I think the best way to think about scientific theories is as follows. You have some box of data you've collected. You want to find a theory that accounts for that data. All theories have some parameters which can be adjusted. So you adjust those parameters until the fit to the data is as good as possible - you can think of that as taking some data out of the box and using it to define the theory. Whatever data is left in the box is a "prediction" (note that the temporal order of when the data was collected versus when the theory was defined is totally irrelevant here - the theory is either right or wrong, and the detailed activities of scientists are obviously not relevant to nature).

For example, when Newton discovered his law of gravitation, he needed to fix maybe 6 or 7 parameters (initial positions and velocities) per orbiting body, plus the gravitational constant. Once he had done that accurately, he could predict eclipses, or when Jupiter would pass through some constellation, or whatever. More and more accurate data was collected, and it continued to be explained almost perfectly by his theory. His theory was extremely well supported - using maybe 50 numbers, he could predict (or "explain" if you prefer) tens of thousands more - all the future and past observations other than the ones used to fix those numbers. It was only when observation got very precise that a few problems emerged, which were solved by Einstein's GR.

Contrast that to the preceding theory of an earth-centered universe. The better the data got, the mode epicycles (parameters) had to be added. So nearly all the data in the box was needed to define the theory, leaving very little to test it with. That's the hallmark of a wrong theory.

By this standard Lambda-CDM is incredibly successful as a scientific theory. It predicts (at least some of) the results of every new observation we make. It contains maybe 30 parameters (of which perhaps 3 or 4 have to do with dark energy and dark matter), and yet it can account for and predict just about every cosmological observation ever made, of which there are probably millions. Yes, there are some problems, and often surprises - but they are all on the edge of statistical significance, so they do not constitute a serious challenge (the dark flows observation falls in that category), or they are simply aspects of the theory that had not been properly worked out or understood until data made it clear more work was needed.


... over a year and a half ago!

Since then this thread has accumulated over 4000 posts, the bulk of which are Michael's failed efforts to criticize contemporary cosmology pretty much exclusively using tantrums, lies, arguments from incredulity, and arguments from ignorance. Several rational, highly knowledgeable people have patiently and thoroughly explained how Michael's criticisms have been unsupported, or as often as not, simple lies and logical fallacies.

Another large portion of Michael's posts have been his failed effort to offer an alternative explanation for the effects that are consistently explained by the current dark matter/dark energy theories. Those efforts have been framed mostly on his incessant, arrogant, and untruthful demands that a couple of his dead heroes had it all figured out as much as 100 years ago. Not once has he been able to cite a particular piece of real science. Very often he has vaguely directed people to read material which hasn't provided any of the support which Michael claimed. Never once, however, has he been specific about particular references to the sources of his claims. And as always, very knowledgeable and rational people have patiently and thoroughly explained where Michael has gone wrong and tried with great difficulty to get Michael to make himself understood.

Much of the effort of these participants has been met with Michael's insults, taunting, incivility, whining, lies, and more arguments from incredulity and ignorance. He has consistently avoided answering legitimate, relevant questions. He has outright ignored far more valid questions than he has addressed. He has consistently attempted to derail the thread to avoid issues important to the topic and/or to interject nonsense about his other pet crackpot conjectures. And he has refused to improve his uncivil tone and to stop lying even when asked politely to do so. All in all, Michael failed to respond in a reasonable, scientific manner to any issue across more than 4000 posts in this discussion.

So in summary, the questions in the opening post have been addressed, thoroughly, reasonably, and intelligently, to the satisfaction of everyone except Michael. Many people have learned a great deal about cosmology thanks to Tim, Reality Check, sol invictus, DeiRenDopa, Tubbythin, edd, Ziggurat, tusenfem, W.D.Clinger, Perpetual Student, ben m, Dancing David, temporalillusion, The Man, and certainly a few others who contributed. Michael, not for lack of extreme effort on the part of others, has taught nothing, certainly not directly, and apparently learned nothing. Not a single god damned thing. And he has failed in every way to provide even the most rudimentary criticism or alternative explanations for the concerns he expressed in his opening post.

Does this sound about right?
 
FYI, all of your questions will be (already have been actually) addressed in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171313

Since they are all solar related questions, I'll simply respond there.
FYI, Michael Mozina should learn how to understand what he reads.

This is the thread of brantc's physically impossible "the sun has a solid solid iron surface and is powered by an undefined aether battery" idea. It has nothing to do with any "the sun is a cathode" fantasy.
 
Any and all solar related questions should be posted in the moderated thread on that topic. I've spend months collecting all my ideas in that thread, and there's no point in discussing it here too.
Wrong - you have spent years spreading your physically impossible idea that the sun has a iron layer/crust/(whatever you come up with next) maiily because you have the delustion that you can see it in running difference images of flares in the corona.
That thread is merely the last place that you tried to derail into the latest incarnation of your fantasy. That was addressed in this post: Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been totally debunked.
The motherlode of your fantasies is Electric universe theories here.

Your ideas are persistant fantasies derived from your ignorance of the actual science. Thus there is no point in discussing it at all, especially here.
 
Alternating Charge is still making me giggle. Or maybe it's the lime beer.

Well, since you're giggling at your own strawmen, I'd say it's the beer. :)

FYI, I have a very busy week at work this week and I probably won't have much time for the boards for a bit.

IMO it's rather amusing that not one of you actually answered my question (black is hot). Not only can you not tell the difference between a "neutral" plasma and a "current carrying" one, you also evidently can't tell an electrically neutral wire from a current carrying wire either. :)

That pure lack of understanding (willful misunderstand is more like it) seems to be your problem in a nutshell. You imagine the universe to be full of 'neutral" plasmas, and full of magically created magnetic fields, when in reality it is a "current carrying" environment, hence the presence all the magnetic fields. :)

IMO it still comes right back to Alfven's 'circuit' orientation of MHD theory. You refuse to embrace it. You refuse to stop dabbling in the "pseudoscientific' black arts. What you won't do, what you *ABSOLUTELY REFUSE* to do, is to embrace a circuit orientation of MHD theory and apply it to space. As a result you live in the 'dark' ages by choice.
 
What would definitively disprove an "electric universe" concept that you advocate Michael? What one piece of evidence that is conceived, tested, observed and repeated that would bring you to say "I was wrong about all of this"?
 
What would definitively disprove an "electric universe" concept that you advocate Michael? What one piece of evidence that is conceived, tested, observed and repeated that would bring you to say "I was wrong about all of this"?


Given the framework of lies, incredulity, and ignorance on which Michael has constructed his arguments over these many years, and his clearly demonstrated lack of qualification to understand science even at the level of a typical ten year old child, you are very unlikely to ever receive a rational answer to a legitimately scientific question like that.
 
GeeMack
Originally Posted by nvidiot
What would definitively disprove an "electric universe" concept that you advocate Michael? What one piece of evidence that is conceived, tested, observed and repeated that would bring you to say "I was wrong about all of this"?
Given the framework of lies, incredulity, and ignorance on which Michael has constructed his arguments over these many years, and his clearly demonstrated lack of qualification to understand science even at the level of a typical ten year old child, you are very unlikely to ever receive a rational answer to a legitimately scientific question like that.


Oh I know that. :P

But the evasions are so imaginative... You couldn't write this stuff... oh wait...

Certainly won't hold my breath.
 
IMO it's rather amusing that not one of you actually answered my question (black is hot). Not only can you not tell the difference between a "neutral" plasma and a "current carrying" one, you also evidently can't tell an electrically neutral wire from a current carrying wire either. :)

Can you stop these nonsense claims, small children might read it.

That pure lack of understanding (willful misunderstand is more like it) seems to be your problem in a nutshell. You imagine the universe to be full of 'neutral" plasmas, and full of magically created magnetic fields, when in reality it is a "current carrying" environment, hence the presence all the magnetic fields.

Can you please read Alfvén's books, or Peratt's and can you please show me the exact pages where they claim that a current carrying plasma is not neutral? You might also want to read Eugene Parker's "Conversations on electric and magnetic fields in the cosmos."

IMO it still comes right back to Alfven's 'circuit' orientation of MHD theory. You refuse to embrace it. You refuse to stop dabbling in the "pseudoscientific' black arts. What you won't do, what you *ABSOLUTELY REFUSE* to do, is to embrace a circuit orientation of MHD theory and apply it to space. As a result you live in the 'dark' ages by choice.

Circuit description of plasmaphysical phenomena is standard mainstream physics and has been done for decades. However, do you know the limitations of circuit descriptions, what is the approximation that you are making (hint, it has to do with the same limitations for MDH).

But then again, you think that the only thing that plasma physicists are working on is magnetic reconnection. For me that is like the tiniest part of the work I am doing, which has mainly to do with instabilities and oscillations and ULF waves in (magneto)plasmas. Most of these things are impossible to describe in the circuit orientation because, and darn now I give the answer away, the length scales involved are too small and currents are flowing perpendicular to the magnetic field, etc. etc.

The only person who is living in the dark ages is you and brantc, insisting that all plasma processes have to be looked at with MDH glasses on (because that is what circuit orientiation is) which means you average away all the small scale physics, you throw away interesting structures as double layers and all other kinds of very interesting micro scale physics in (magneto)plasmas.
 
IMO it's rather amusing that not one of you actually answered my question (black is hot).

Because every single one of us knew that your question was irrelevant. At this point it's not even amusing that you refused to answer a question posed to you BEFORE you posed yours. You STILL haven't demonstrated that you have the slightest clue about the difference between charge, current, and voltage. You can have current without net charge. Tell me, Michael, what's the charge on the black wire?

Not only can you not tell the difference between a "neutral" plasma and a "current carrying" one, you also evidently can't tell an electrically neutral wire from a current carrying wire either. :)

And you can't tell the difference between voltage, charge, and current.

That pure lack of understanding (willful misunderstand is more like it) seems to be your problem in a nutshell.

See above.

What you won't do, what you *ABSOLUTELY REFUSE* to do, is to embrace a circuit orientation of MHD theory and apply it to space. As a result you live in the 'dark' ages by choice.

What you won't do, what you *ABSOLUTELY REFUSE* to do, is actually learn the meaning of basic physics terms. As a result you live in your own fantasy land. Alone. In the dark. Except for brantc, who thinks that sex makes magical energy. He's in there with you. Maybe he wants to cuddle.
 
The only person who is living in the dark ages is you and brantc, insisting that all plasma processes have to be looked at with MDH glasses on (because that is what circuit orientiation is) which means you average away all the small scale physics, you throw away interesting structures as double layers and all other kinds of very interesting micro scale physics in (magneto)plasmas.

You are correct to note that MM insists on MHD, rather than saying that he uses MHD. He doesn't use it for anything, he just needs something to say to reject anyone else's plasma physics statements.

It reminds me of this comic strip:

http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1786

"Ah, yes, Maxwell's Equations are good for domain-specific solutions, but it doesn't adequately address the issue of MHD out of the box."
 
What would definitively disprove an "electric universe" concept that you advocate Michael? What one piece of evidence that is conceived, tested, observed and repeated that would bring you to say "I was wrong about all of this"?

In terms of solar theory and perhaps even EU theory in general, I suppose that a recreation of Birkeland's empirical experiments and "predictions" using "magnetic reconnection" would probably do it. Anything other than a physical demonstration of concept isn't likely to impress me much. The mainstreams sky entities are more impotent than the average sky deity. Even Zeus presumably controlled the EM field and he definitely preferred "current flow" over "magnetic reconnection" when doing his dirty work. :)
 
What would definitively disprove an "electric universe" concept that you advocate Michael? What one piece of evidence that is conceived, tested, observed and repeated that would bring you to say "I was wrong about all of this"?

Ok, I gave you an honest answer to that question, so how about you reciprocate. What would it take to get you to "lack belief" in "dark" stuff and supernatural inflation entities?
 
Can you stop these nonsense claims, small children might read it.

sol said:
For the lurkers: all three wires are very close to electrically neutral.

Emphasis mine. Holy cow! I knew I wouldn't be on this weekend so I felt compelled to give the children a heads up and let them know that sol was *WAY* off base. Not a single one of you corrected his mistake. If it were up to you the kids would all electrocute themselves to death!

Not one of you has a clue about "current flow" because to you it's just a "neutral" wire/plasma, when in reality it's a "current carrying" plasma/wire. That's basically your problem in a nutshell.
 
Emphasis mine. Holy cow! I....
Your emphasis shows your ignorance.
Wires are electrically neutral. This means that they have roughly equal numbers of negative and positive charges.
That does not mean that there is no electrical current. This is high school physics.

You do not have a clue about current flow.

The basic physics is that
  1. wires are neutral.
  2. wires can carry currents.
  3. plasma is quasi-neutral (neutral over scales larger than the Debye length).
  4. plasma can "carry" currents.
An inability to understand the difference between charge and current is basically your problem in a nutshell.
 
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