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Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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Dark Energy
There is nothing even close to circular about dark energy. We observe that there is an inconsistency between the brightness and distance of type Ia supernovae, based on the standard expanding universe cosmology. We realize that the inconsistency can be eliminated by modifying the cosmology to replace the old standard of decelerating expansion with a new standard of accelerating expansion.

In other words: Epic fail on the deceleration prediction. Now will it die a natural death?

We also determine that making this change does not cause any other fundamental inconsistency between cosmology and the physics upon which the cosmological models are based.

In other words your ad hoc assertions have to "fit" with your other stuff, otherwise it's useless to you. Got it.

We do not know what the cause of the acceleration is, but we know it is there.

So how did you make that leap from "acceleration" to "dark energy". That's got to be quite a leap of faith....


So we give it a name, dark energy.

So you might have just made that up Tim. Where is your empirical test of concept? When did "dark energy" ever cause acceleration?

There is nothing even remotely circular about that reasoning; it is completely logical, self consistent, and consistent with known physics.

What hogwash. It's not only "circular", it's "made to order" in a purely ad hoc fashion so you could "make it fit"! If we do not "accept" that "acceleration=dark energy" your whole argument falls apart. I think I'll pick these apart one at a time, because they are all unique forms of woo.
 
Looks like a non sequitur to me. I don't think anyone suggested that you needed to have cosmic wires. Where are the currents that power the sun? Surely you have observed them.

I am not personally of the impression that the sun has an "external" power source per se. It may electrically interact with other suns in a full "circuit", but I would expect the sun(s) to be the primary energy source, not something external to the sun.
 
Big time fail! EM fields already have a valid scientific name Zig. They are not "dark energy".

Wow, a semantic argument. How terribly powerful.

And irrelevant. The vacuum expectation value of the electromagnetic field is a form of dark energy. It's perfectly acceptable to have overlapping definitions of words.

You only acknowledged half of the problem! The whole concept of 'evolution' is based upon a *NEED* you have to justify your 'creation date'.

No, Michael. It's based upon the rather simple concept of conservation of energy and the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Stars output energy. Therefore their internal energy must be changing. That requires changes over time, ie, evolution. Galaxies are also not in thermal equilibrium. They are constantly increasing in entropy. That requires changes over time, ie, evolution. Regardless of how you formed them in the first place, galaxies MUST evolve. To deny that galaxies evolve is to deny both the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics. The pathetic thing is that you don't even understand why it's a violation.

Because it's a closed system?

The fact that it's a closed system is the whole reason that we can conclude the entropy should always increase, Michael.

Because it has more total energy than we imagine.

That won't save it from a heat death. That'll just make the heat death hot rather than cold. You REALLY don't have a clue about thermodynamics.
 
I am not personally of the impression that the sun has an "external" power source per se. It may electrically interact with other suns in a full "circuit", but I would expect the sun(s) to be the primary energy source, not something external to the sun.

So where are the currents? Show me the money.
 
DeiRenDopa said:
And this question demonstrates that LCDM cosmological models are "woo" how, exactly?
It has *ZERO* actual "predictive" capabilities. It's all been postdicted and cobbled together in a purely ad hoc manner based on metaphysical pigs and pretty red math. It's numerology with lots of "published papers" on the topic.
But it surely has "*ZERO* actual "predictive" capabilities" only if you completely disregard the math and the quantification, right?

I may be seriously misunderstanding you here MM, but it seems to me that you have just declared all of physics, since at least the time of Galileo and Newton, to be "woo".

Please set me straight.

I'm having great difficulty following your logic, MM; perhaps you could take a little time to define what, exactly, you mean by "woo"?
Woo is stuff that doesn't show up in the lab, like your dead inflation deity.
And like [OIII], electron degenerate matter, nuclear degenerate matter, Mozplasma, Mozodes, Mozeparation, Mozcharges, Mozwind, ... ?

And neutrinos, from ~1930 to 1957?

Or helium between its detection in the solar spectrum and discovery here on Earth? Or nebulium?

Woo is stuff that fails to useful or meaningful in terms of actual physics, like your "dark energy" stuff that never does anything useful and can't be measured by humans directly.
Like neutrinos, from ~1930 to 1957?

Or positrons, from Dirac to PET scanners?

Or quarks?

Or helium?

It's evidently shy around objects bound by gravity. Woo is stuff that never actually appears when put to the empirical test, like that mythical brand of exotic dark matter that just got falsified (again).
So, I presume you can cite a paper - preferably by an astrophysicist - which predicted the properties of CDM that have not been detected (so far) by XENON?

If not, how could the XENON results possibly "falsify" CDM?!?

I must say that you seem to be continuing to use perfectly good, standard terms in highly idiosyncratic ways; why?

What's it going to take to get you to admit that inflation was an ad hoc creation?
What's woo about "ad hoc creations"?

I accept that you have a view of the nature of science (or perhaps just physics) that is radically different from that of (all?) scientists, possibly since the time of Newton, but using "ad hoc creations" as a criterion for deciding something is scientific woo immediately makes your very own solar "model" woo, doesn't it? I mean, what could possibly be more ad hoc than the Mozode and Mozplasma?

What's it going to take to get you to admit that 'dark energy' is "gap filler'
Nothing; it's a placeholder term, with several different meanings.

to support an otherwise falsified theory?
We're back to a fundamental, possibly irreconcilable, difference in views of the nature of science.

Perhaps it would be more productive, given this dramatically different set of views, to concentrate on the inconsistencies of your own view? For example, "What's it going to take to get you to admit that 'Mozplasma' is "gap filler' to support an otherwise falsified model?"

What's it going to take to get you to wake up to electricity in space?
Meaningless question; there are thousands of papers on "electricity in space"

It seems to me that inflation, DE and DM are "strawmen" by design.
No doubt (it does seem so to you); however you seem to having enormous difficulty in explaining why you think this, in terms of ideas that are logical and consistent, especially when examined in light of your very own solar "model"!

Does logic and consistency count for naught in your worldview (this is a serious question)?

They are not "real". They don't have any physical effect here and now on anything here and now. You can't demonstrate that any of your three metaphysical friends actually exist or ever existed in nature based on controlled experimentation here on Earth. Instead you point at the sky and claim "my metaphysical friend of choice did it" and toss in some math. It's pointless woo with pretty math, just like numerology. Like numerology it actually has no real predictive capabilities as those two glaring failures this week alone can and do demonstrate.
And yet, and yet ...

If we choose Mozplasma, the Mozode, Mozeparation, Mozwind, Mozcharge, and Moztronium as things "they" refer to, the exact same thing applies, doesn't it?

So why is it OK for you to accept the reality of Moztronium (to pick just one example), but reject the reality of CDM?

Your 'gap' now where you can evidently stuff back in those dark matter elves is something like 80 protons massive. Don't you think we would have noticed something that massive before now?

I'm sorry, but mainstream theory isn't just predicted on *one* type of "woo", but upon three different forms of woo that are all "no shows" in the lab. What else can it be except "woo", when only 4% of the whole theory is based on actual empirical physics?
Well, you can pretty much guess what I'm going to write now, can't you?

The MM solar "model" isn't just predicated on *one* type of "woo", but upon *at least six* different forms of woo that are all "no shows" in the lab. What else can it be except "woo", when 0% of the whole "model" is based on actual empirical physics?
 
Dark Matter
There is nothing even close to circular about dark matter.

:) I love these proclamations that are actually the antithesis of "fact". The term "dark matter" used to refer to "stuff we can't see with our primitive technology'. The new and improved "non baryonic" brand is whole different ballgame. That was "made to order" just like "dark energy".

We observe that the rotation of spiral galaxies, and the motions of individual galaxies in clusters are not consistent with the dual assumptions that (1) all of visible matter is all the matter there is, and (2) the law of gravity is correct.

It that "Gravity" with or without "dark energy"? :)

What makes you sure you have properly identified all the "normal" mass?
 
You don't just stuff the gaps with "dark magic energy" either, but that seems to be exactly what you've done in the past.
Yep, just like neutrinos, positrons, helium, Neptune, quarks (esp the top quark), [OIII], nuclear degenerate matter, Fermi gas, ...

What makes you, MM, so supremely confident you know what the next ten/fifty/hundred/thousand years of experimental and observational (astro)physics will turn up?

Are you an oracle?
 
Inflation
There is nothing even close to circular about inflation.


The obligatory (and false) proclamation. :)

We know that there is an inconsistency between the observed properties of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) and the fundamental physics of pre-inflationary big bang cosmology.

An you have no empirical connection between that and "inflation". In fact you don't have *ANY* empirical connection between inflation and anything because Guth made it up entirely in his head! There's no 'consistency' gained by adding "inflation" to anything! it's a purely ad hoc creation from the mind of a single individual and I can even name the individual! The whole thing was on big "leap of faith" based on "negative pressure vacuums" not less! Give it up Tim, you'll never demonstrate that inflation wasn't "made up". I even know the guy that did it.
 
Yep, just like neutrinos, positrons, helium, Neptune, quarks (esp the top quark), [OIII], nuclear degenerate matter, Fermi gas, ...

What makes you, MM, so supremely confident you know what the next ten/fifty/hundred/thousand years of experimental and observational (astro)physics will turn up?

Are you an oracle?

That's rich! You're the clairvoyant one that expects and even predicts that we will find all new forms of matter and energy! :) Irony meter overload!
 
The Northern Lights. Seriously? This is your evidence of an electric sun in an electric universe?

Well, yes as a matter of fact. That is one "prediction" that is directly related to a "cathode solar theory".

The northern lights are your mysterious cosmic currents that flow through your galactic circuit?

No, they are a physical manifestation of an electric sun. There are a 'prediction' related to Birkeland's cathode solar model and theory. Again, I'm not trying to "power" the sun externally.
 
Well, yes as a matter of fact. That is one "prediction" that is directly related to a "cathode solar theory".



No, they are a physical manifestation of an electric sun. There are a 'prediction' related to Birkeland's cathode solar model and theory. Again, I'm not trying to "power" the sun externally.

Ok. So where are the currents? Show me the money.
 
In other words: Epic fail on the deceleration prediction. Now will it die a natural death?
In other words: You did not understand what you read.

In other words: Epic success in applying the scientific method by changing a theory (the univere expands at a constant rate) when empirical evidence shows that the universe expands at an increasing rate.

In other words your ad hoc assertions have to "fit" with your other stuff, otherwise it's useless to you. Got it.
You have it right for once :jaw-dropp !
A consistent set of theories have to be .... consistent!

So how did you make that leap from "acceleration" to "dark energy". That's got to be quite a leap of faith....
No it is not.
Your religious belief that there is no cause of the observed acceleration is a leap of faith.
Scientists know that an effect has a cause.
Scientists use what the universe tells us (i.e. the laws of physics) to explore the properties of the cause. In this case, that cause is
  • Not seen.
  • Acts as if it was an energy, e.g.
    • a non-zero cosmological constant ("vacuum energy").
    • Quintessence
    • something else
Thus: dark energy
The exact nature of this dark energy is a matter of speculation. It is known to be very homogeneous, not very dense and is not known to interact through any of the fundamental forces other than gravity. Since it is not very dense — roughly 10−29 grams per cubic centimeter — it is hard to imagine experiments to detect it in the laboratory. Dark energy can only have such a profound impact on the universe, making up 74% of universal density, because it uniformly fills otherwise empty space. The two leading models are quintessence and the cosmological constant. Both models include the common characteristic that dark energy must have negative pressure.
Negative pressure
Independently from its actual nature, dark energy would need to have a strong negative pressure (i.e. effects, acting repulsively) in order to explain the observed acceleration in the expansion rate of the universe.
According to General Relativity, the pressure within a substance contributes to its gravitational attraction for other things just as its mass density does. This happens because the physical quantity that causes matter to generate gravitational effects is the Stress-energy tensor, which contains both the energy (or matter) density of a substance and its pressure and viscosity.

So you might have just made that up Tim. Where is your empirical test of concept? When did "dark energy" ever cause acceleration?
That is just stupid, Michael Mozina - dark energy is whatever causes the observed acceleration in the rate of expansion of the universe.

If you do not like the name then call it "green peppers" but do not expect anyone to know what you are talking about.

What hogwash. It's not only "circular", it's "made to order" in a purely ad hoc fashion so you could "make it fit"! If we do not "accept" that "acceleration=dark energy" your whole argument falls apart. I think I'll pick these apart one at a time, because they are all unique forms of woo.
What hogwash. Where is the "circular" in:
  1. Observe that the rate of expansion of the universe is increasing.
  2. Observe that the cause of that is not seen.
  3. Observe that the cause of that needs to be an energy to fit in with how the universe acts.
  4. Give that cause an easily understood placeholder name: dark energy.
What a unique form of woo. Nobody acccepts that "acceleration=dark energy". For a start, energy is not acceleration :eye-poppi ! You are merely continuing your delusion that dark energy is the actual cause of the acceleration. It is not. The acutual cause is still to be determined, e.g.
  • a non-zero cosmological constant ("vacuum energy") or
  • Quintessence or
  • something else.
 
You don't just stuff the gaps with "dark magic energy" either, but that seems to be exactly what you've done in the past. What kind of information would actually falsify your beloved Lambda-CMD theory if not either of these two recent revelations? Honestly, what's it going to take?

Well I don't think it's so productive to try to 'falsify' a theory in a standalone sense. I like to run theories off against each other and pick the best. So for me, any theory that fitted observations either with enough extra accuracy (which given the state of observations is actually quite hard - when the experimental errors don't give you distinguishing power you have a tough time doing this) or with fewer parameters. All you have to do is give me a theory that does either or both of those.

That said, something that would falsify LCDM? Well, observations that don't fit w=-1 would do what you want, as RC said too. There's actually a wealth of possible observations that would falsify it, and a number of surveys in progress that could give those results.

Personally, I would love to see LCDM toppled, on the basis that anything that did topple it would almost certainly be more interesting. However, from what I've seen, what you favour is not in the running.
 
That's rich! You're the clairvoyant one that expects and even predicts that we will find all new forms of matter and energy!
I am?

Can you point to anything I've written, ever, which says this?

No, really, I'm very interested to know how you came to this (amazing) conclusion.

If, perchance, you do find such material, I'd like the chance to edit it, because it is - as you have written it - completely antithetical to the view of science (astrophysics) I hold.
 
In other words: Epic success in applying the scientific method by changing a theory (the univere expands at a constant rate) when empirical evidence shows that the universe expands at an increasing rate.

No, epic fail because instead of finding a real empirical cause, you made one up.

You have it right for once :jaw-dropp !
A consistent set of theories have to be .... consistent!

So you needed a really ad hoc kind of energy that didn't have any influence on that bad old solar wind you can't explain, but somehow does it's glorious magic away from prying human eyes and those dreaded empirical tests that you folks avoid like the plague.

You therefore constructed "made to order" sorts of ad hoc properties that properly fit with your otherwise falsified theory and make it impossible to "test". Suddenly we have a new form of "dark energy" that only does it magic "out there" in deep space where humans can never reach. How darn "handy" don't you think?

Scientists know that an effect has a cause.

That "cause" has nothing to do with:

Magic energy
God energy
Dark energy.

You never bothered to demonstrate a real "cause/effect" relationship between your magic energy and that observation of acceleration.
 
Well, yes as a matter of fact. That is one "prediction" that is directly related to a "cathode solar theory".
In which papers - published in a relevant, peer-reviewed journal - may one read details of this ""cathode solar theory""?

How is this "theory" related to your own solar "model"?

How is the "cathode" in this related to the Mozode?
 
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