Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

[ben m]

In this case, I believe there is a misunderstanding on your part on the role the negative pressure plays. The force from the pressure (as in the F in P=F/A) is not the force that's relevant. The gravitational force from the energy of whatever has this negative pressure is the important thing, and this is distinct from the pressure.

... and that is why we insist on using P = -dE/dV. Gravity and cosmology only cares about the E, the energy density. I've pointed you towards the relevant equations several times and you have ignored them. From a cosmology perspective, the difference between negative and positive pressure isn't "which way do the plates move". The difference is "does the total energy increase or decrease as the Universe expands". I.e. "For a positive dV, is dE positive or negative?"

 

[Michael Mozina]

... and that is why we insist on using P = -dE/dV. Gravity and cosmology only cares about the E, the energy density. I've pointed you towards the relevant equations several times and you have ignored them. From a cosmology perspective, the difference between negative and positive pressure isn't "which way do the plates move". The difference is "does the total energy increase or decrease as the Universe expands".

The total energy is always conserved. It neither increases nor decreases as the result of expansion. If anything, the energy simply changes "forms".

 

[Michael Mozina]

Again that “tangible thing like a computer” is only made possible by people with a better understanding then you just putting the pieces they made together.

And? What does that have to do with astronomers?

Similarly you are tiring to put your own pieces together about QM and cosmology that you certainly do not seem to understand and as a result your pieces just don’t work.

Actually, my pieces function perfectly and jive with the references I have cited for you and that you have ignored. You're the one trying to claim there is "negative pressure" in a positively pressurized chamber.

If you are willing to put together the computer pieces that you got from someone else, because they work and those people understood what they were doing, to get that computer to work when you turn it on, then why not do the same with QM and cosmology?

QM is fine as it is, and cosmology is simply "broken" beyond repair, that's why. Whereas I can physically assemble the pieces of my computer and of QM, none of that jives with inflation or DE. There is no "negative pressure" in a vacuum. You have energy inside the vacuum. Period.

Two of the pieces you have already been given are zero point energy

As I've said, I accept the term "vacuum energy", and that is actually just an issue related to semantics.

and negative pressure,

That is a physical impossibility. A vacuum can contain pressure if it has atoms or other things flowing through it. Even a "pure" vacuum, one without atoms or energy flow would simply be a "zero" pressure environment.

but since you do not understand them and simply refuse to accept that other people do or that they are even possible, your "blind faith" construct simply does not work.

My explanation works perfectly to explain a "low pressure" zone and a "higher pressure" zone inside of a "positive pressure"' environment. You have "blind faith" in a physical impossibility and something that cannot exist. The whole Casimir experiment is typically performed at 1ATM, and at room temperatures. If you really wanted to demonstrate "negative pressure" in a vacuum, tell me what you would add or subtract from a "zero pressure" vacuum to achieve "negative pressure"?

 

[Ziggurat]

The total energy is always conserved.

Nobody claimed otherwise.

It neither increases nor decreases as the result of expansion.

Total energy does not, but the energy stored in various forms may. And those forms can contribute pressure. If the volume dependence of the energy of any of those forms behaves in certain ways, that will contribute a negative pressure. Quite a simple concept, actually, but it requires two things: first, understanding [latex]$P=-\frac{\partial E}{\partial V}$[/latex], and second, understanding E(V). We're still trying to get you to understand the first step. Once we get over that hurdle, we can worry about E(V), and whether or not it's got the right form to produce a negative pressure, but there's really no point in even talking about that until you understand the definition of pressure being used. Which you apparently still don't. You managed to get to P=F/A, but you haven't figured out why it's the same thing as the definition I gave above. Hell, you haven't even asked me to show you why they're the same. Which indicates you're just not interested in actually understanding the argument.

 

[edd]

Seconding all of the above. I don't see any reason to continue the discussion until you can understand how the theory in question reaches its predictions, whether or not those predictions are actually correct in practice.

 

[Ziggurat]

The whole Casimir experiment is typically performed at 1ATM, and at room temperatures.

Complete and utter nonsense.

 

[The Man]

And? What does that have to do with astronomers?

Do you have some fixation on astronomers specifically? Were you scared by an astronomer as a child?

Actually, my pieces function perfectly and jive with the references I have cited for you and that you have ignored. You're the one trying to claim there is "negative pressure" in a positively pressurized chamber.

What kind of jive are you trying to feed us now? The reference you cited expressly gave the pressure as negative that you say is not possible, so don’t jive us with your 'jive' jive.

QM is fine as it is, and cosmology is simply "broken" beyond repair, that's why. Whereas I can physically assemble the pieces of my computer and of QM, none of that jives with inflation or DE. There is no "negative pressure" in a vacuum. You have energy inside the vacuum. Period.

More jive talkin‘, both inflation and DE are consistent with QM as is negative pressure.

As I've said, I accept the term "vacuum energy", and that is actually just an issue related to semantics.

So you accept a term without understanding what it means or its implications, talk about “blind faith”.

That is a physical impossibility. A vacuum can contain pressure if it has atoms or other things flowing through it. Even a "pure" vacuum, one without atoms or energy flow would simply be a "zero" pressure environment.

“a physical impossibility”? Your “blind faith” is showing again, specifically in your belief that you can dictate what is or is not physically possible.

My explanation works perfectly to explain a "low pressure" zone and a "higher pressure" zone inside of a "positive pressure"' environment. You have "blind faith" in a physical impossibility and something that cannot exist. The whole Casimir experiment is typically performed at 1ATM, and at room temperatures. If you really wanted to demonstrate "negative pressure" in a vacuum, tell me what you would add or subtract from a "zero pressure" vacuum to achieve "negative pressure"?

Any pressure you subtract from a "zero pressure" is by definition a "negative pressure". Why do you insist on me repeating that? How in your explanation is that “"low pressure" zone” in the volume between the plates obtained if that volume between the plates is not sealed and isolated from your “"higher pressure" zone “? Your explanation requires more, well, explanation.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you have some fixation on astronomers specifically? Were you scared by an astronomer as a child?

<spanish accent>My name is Michael Mozina. You killed my father. Prepare to have your theories destroyed.</spanish accent>

 

[The Man]

<spanish accent>My name is Michael Mozina. You killed my father. Prepare to have your theories destroyed.</spanish accent>

Ah yes, the ubiquitous and ignominious six fingered astronomer.

 

[Michael Mozina]

<spanish accent>My name is Michael Mozina. You killed my father. Prepare to have your theories destroyed.</spanish accent>

Well Zig, at least you have one redeeming quality, a good sense of humor. Even I appreciated that one.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Nobody claimed otherwise.

Ok.

Total energy does not, but the energy stored in various forms may. And those forms can contribute pressure. If the volume dependence of the energy of any of those forms behaves in certain ways, that will contribute a negative pressure.

What is the "volume" of your near singularity prior to expansion? What is the "volume" of "space" at that moment in time?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Seconding all of the above. I don't see any reason to continue the discussion until you can understand how the theory in question reaches its predictions, whether or not those predictions are actually correct in practice.

I understand how the theory in question reaches it's "predictions", but there is no area of the chamber that experiences "negative pressure", and in no way does this analogy justify your faith in "negative pressure in a vacuum".

 

[Michael Mozina]

Do you have some fixation on astronomers specifically?

They are the only ones that teach creationism in the classroom.

Were you scared by an astronomer as a child?

No, actually I was highly impressed with them prior to Guth's introduction of metaphysics into the mix. By then I was in my early 20's and they certainly didn't scare me and the still do not scare me.

What kind of jive are you trying to feed us now? The reference you cited expressly gave the pressure as negative that you say is not possible, so don’t jive us with your 'jive' jive.

Bull. The only *JIVE* here is yours. I provided you with references that *do jive* with my explanation that there is simply more pressure on the outside than between the plates and the plates are pushed together. This also jives with the WIKI diagram. It's not my fault you're in pure denial at this point.

More jive talkin‘, both inflation and DE are consistent with QM as is negative pressure.

Nope. Inflation and DE are figments of your collective imagination and have nothing whatsoever to do with QM. Negative pressure in a vacuum is pure baloney. A vacuum can contain pressure if it contains atoms at some temperature. PV=nRT. All vacuums contain atoms, and no area of space remains "zero" degrees Kelvin.

Any pressure you subtract from a "zero pressure" is by definition a "negative pressure".

But there is no surface area an no place in the vacuum that experiences "zero pressure". The outside of the plates has a pressure on the plate that is greater than zero, and greater than the amount of pressure on the inside of the plates. You're still hopelessly confused by your mathematical equations, and completely ignorant of the total force on all sides of all plates. You are simply *ignoring* the outside pressure, or "setting it to zero", but that is an *oversimplification* of the actual physical process that occurs in the chamber. No area of the chamber experiences "negative pressure". The "pressure" on one side of the plate is greater than the pressure on the other. You have never created a "zero pressure" in the first place.

I have provided you with ample "explanations" that did not come from my lips and you ignored them. I provided you with ample "graphics" to show you exactly what is physically occurring at the level of QM that was obviously drawn by someone who agrees with the reference I cited. You ignored that too. Your denial of these facts is just like any creationist in any conversation. You refuse to hear because you do not wish to hear, but I have provided you with these references.

Physicists in Germany have made the first direct measurements of the “critical Casimir effect”, a classical analogue of the strange quantum effect that draws two conducting surfaces together in a vacuum. They also say that the classical effect can be easily tuned to repel rather than attract for reducing undesirable friction in nanomachines.

The quantum Casimir effect comes about because a vacuum always contains fluctuating electromagnetic fields. Normally these fluctuations are roughly the same everywhere, but two close conducting surfaces set “boundary conditions” that limit the number of allowed field frequencies between them. Only waves that can fit multiples of half a wavelength between the surfaces resonate, leaving non-resonating frequencies suppressed. The result is that the total field inside a gap between conductors cannot produce enough pressure to match that from outside, so the surfaces are pushed together.

In the WIKI diagram, the resonating waves are shown in green, and the net effect of higher and lower pressures are shown in the blue arrows.

Denial won't save you.

 

[GeeMack]

Without exception, *every* creationist I have ever talked with thinks I'm wrong. So what? I learned a long time ago I can't change other people's opinions. They must do that themselves.

You think you're right and every professional in the field of physics is wrong. You're dyed-in-the-wool crazy, Michael.

I think my communication skills are fine, but like all creationists you have an emotional attachment to being "right" even though you have no empirical support of your position. There is no such thing as "inflation". Guth quite literally made it up in his imagination and it has become a "MEME" within your industry. Dark energy is as "real" as "magic". SUSY particles have never been seen in an actual experiment.

No, your communication skills suck rocks. You don't have the ability to make your point in a way that is understandable to any physics scientist on Earth. Not a single one. For you to think you're right and everyone else is wrong only demonstrates further that you're crazy.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Complete and utter nonsense.

Specifically which experiment was done at *zero* pressure and *zero* degrees Kelvin?

 

[Michael Mozina]

You think you're right and every professional in the field of physics is wrong. You're dyed-in-the-wool crazy, Michael.

And to think you folks accuse me of not listening. I have repeatedly explained to you that I agree with many professional physicists in the field GeeMack, including the references I cited. It's simply *this core group* that seems to be in pure denial, including in denial of the fact I have been specific about *which* group I disagree with and the references I have cited.

No, your communication skills suck rocks. You don't have the ability to make your point in a way that is understandable to any physics scientist on Earth. Not a single one.

Except the one that drew the diagram and the one I cited for a verbal "explanation" who evidently can't "communicate" with you in plain English.

The quantum Casimir effect comes about because a vacuum always contains fluctuating electromagnetic fields. Normally these fluctuations are roughly the same everywhere, but two close conducting surfaces set “boundary conditions” that limit the number of allowed field frequencies between them. Only waves that can fit multiples of half a wavelength between the surfaces resonate, leaving non-resonating frequencies suppressed. The result is that the total field inside a gap between conductors cannot produce enough pressure to match that from outside, so the surfaces are pushed together.

For you to think you're right and everyone else is wrong only demonstrates further that you're crazy.

I don't believe that is true. I think it is this little collective group of creationists, and not necessarily even every Lambda proponent on the planet. You're crazy for not listening to the references I have cited or for explaining those green lines and blue arrows in the WIKI diagram IMO.

What in the hell do those green squiggly lines and blue arrows represent Dr Denial?

 

[Reality Check]

What in the hell do those green squiggly lines and blue arrows represent Dr Denial?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...simir_plates.svg/300px-Casimir_plates.svg.png

"green squiggly lines" = vacuum fluctuations.
"blue arrows" = force on each surface of the plates

 

[sol invictus]

And to think you folks accuse me of not listening. I have repeatedly explained to you that I agree with many professional physicists in the field GeeMack, including the references I cited.

The main reference you cite is wikipedia. And what does wikipedia say? It says Casimir pressure is negative.

The fact that you continue to post images from a source that directly contradicts you is.... evidence that it is worthless to respond to you.

And by the way - what gives you the impression that the posters in this thread are astronomers? There is at least one poster here, someone that posted in this thread today and yesterday, who revealed his identity on this forum some time ago. He's a professor of physics in a field that has little to do with astronomy, and everything to do with quantum mechanics and quantum field theory. And guess what - just like everyone else here, wiki, and every physics textbook in existence, he says you're completely wrong.

You're delusional and paranoid. Get help.

 

[The Man]

They are the only ones that teach creationism in the classroom.

I do not know what classroom you were in, but it sure wasn’t astronomy.

No, actually I was highly impressed with them prior to Guth's introduction of metaphysics into the mix. By then I was in my early 20's and they certainly didn't scare me and the still do not scare me. J

So they just broke your heart by utilizing the known aspects of quantum physics that you believe are “physically impossible”, how sad.

Bull. The only *JIVE* here is yours. I provided you with references that *do jive* with my explanation that there is simply more pressure on the outside than between the plates and the plates are pushed together. This also jives with the WIKI diagram. It's not my fault you're in pure denial at this point.

A diagram that the article explains by specifically zero point energy and negative pressure two things you claim are ‘physically impossible’. So your ‘explanation’ jives with a reference to what you claim is ‘physically impossible’, talk about ‘denial’.

Nope. Inflation and DE are figments of your collective imagination and have nothing whatsoever to do with QM. Negative pressure in a vacuum is pure baloney. A vacuum can contain pressure if it contains atoms at some temperature. PV=nRT. All vacuums contain atoms, and no area of space remains "zero" degrees Kelvin.

Please show how ‘Inflation and DE’ are inconsistent with quantum mechanics. You might want to actually learn about quantum mechanics first.

But there is no surface area an no place in the vacuum that experiences "zero pressure". The outside of the plates has a pressure on the plate that is greater than zero, and greater than the amount of pressure on the inside of the plates. You're still hopelessly confused by your mathematical equations, and completely ignorant of the total force on all sides of all plates. You are simply *ignoring* the outside pressure, or "setting it to zero", but that is an *oversimplification* of the actual physical process that occurs in the chamber. No area of the chamber experiences "negative pressure". The "pressure" on one side of the plate is greater than the pressure on the other. You have never created a "zero pressure" in the first place.

Again if the inside of your plates is not sealed and isolated from the outside of your plates then the pressure is the same inside and outside. You are still hopelessly confused about the nature of quantum mechanics and try to force it into some classical analogy you have in you mind.


Again if the pressure on the outside of the plates is not zero then it should be a simple matter for you to measure it or at the very least calculate its magnitude. You might want to actually learn about quantum mechanics first.

I have provided you with ample "explanations" that did not come from my lips and you ignored them. I provided you with ample "graphics" to show you exactly what is physically occurring at the level of QM that was obviously drawn by someone who agrees with the reference I cited. You ignored that too. Your denial of these facts is just like any creationist in any conversation. You refuse to hear because you do not wish to hear, but I have provided you with these references.

What has come from your lips (or finger tips) is that you consider the explanation of zero point energy and negative pressure in your reference to be ‘physically impossible‘, we hear that loud and clear. When are you going to stop being ignorant of your own references?

In the WIKI diagram, the resonating waves are shown in green, and the net effect of higher and lower pressures are shown in the blue arrows.

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Casimir_plates.svg/300px-Casimir_plates.svg.png[/qimg]

Denial won't save you.

Your ignorance continues to confound you.

 

[Reality Check]

In the WIKI diagram, the resonating waves are shown in green, and the net effect of higher and lower pressures are shown in the blue arrows.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...simir_plates.svg/300px-Casimir_plates.svg.png

Denial won't save you.

Ignorance and the inability to read will not save you:
Caption on the diagram = "Casimir forces on parallel plates"
Thus: "blue arrows" = force on each surface of the plates.

Pressure is a number. It does not have direction. It is not represented by arrows.