Labeling products

[Dinwar]

Has anyone ever looked into the environmental impact of carbonated beverages?

Don't they result in tons of CO² being released into the atmosphere ?

Depends on how the CO2 is generated. In home-made soda (you can easily make gingerale--some grated ginger, some sugar, water, a pinch of yeast, and a 2-liter bottle is all you need), it's the same as burning wood: the carbon came from the atmosphere anyway, so it's a wash. Basically, as long as they're pulling the CO2 out of the atmosphere and not out of the ground it's irrelevant to these calculations.

The issue isn't the mere addition of CO2 into the atmosphere. It's a question of reservoirs. CO2 in the atmosphere and biosphere generally switches between them fairly easily, and as long as biomass remains roughly stable everything's stable. It's the transfer of CO2 from the lithosphere (fossil fuels and, to a lesser extent, carbonate minerals) to the atmosphere that has any real impact. Which is a major complication in this label scheme: someone, somewhere has to figure out how to deal with the combination of biomass and fossil fuels commonly used (California has 10% ethanol in gas, for example). And every time an institution changes anything the label will have to be updated.

 

[theprestige]

Probably better than food labels would be a website that published benchmark or best-estimate CO2 data for different categories/classes of foods.

"Beans grown in Region X using Method Y usually produce CO2/Acre Z. Vendors A, B, and C produce beans in this category. However, economies of scale apply, so discount Vendor C by 2%."

People who actually care about this, could do the work and publish the results as a form of community service. People who actually care about this could consult the site and make their grocery choices accordingly. People who actually care about this could even probably raise money amongst themselves to help fund their research and maintain their website. If they actually cared.

 

[DC]

To all intents and purposes it already exists and is called the price.

not at all, most countries do not have CO2 taxation, so this part is not included in the price.

 

[Vic Vega]

I wouldn't look at any label specifying this. I don't really care, to be frank.

I drive a fairly fuel efficient car, do my best not to waste energy or other natural resources, and I recycle... That's all the Earth is getting from me.

 

[bobwtfomg]

There are huge practical difficulties in estimating the carbon footprint of any product.
A good example is fracked shale gas, producing gas this way inevitably leads to seepage but it's impossible to directly measure and estimates vary widely, also because methane does not persist in the atmosphere the CO2 equivalent of methane depends on the time period over which you measure it.
http://www.eeb.cornell.edu/howarth/Marcellus.html

 

[StankApe]

Would this label include the CO2 cost of delivery to final destination?

aha! well played!!!

Not to mention that by manufacturing a warning label, and recording the CO2 levels, one has increased the overall CO2 level more than without such labels.
Proving that this is about agenda pushing rather than any sort of 'inform the public"

 

[DC]

aha! well played!!!

Not to mention that by manufacturing a warning label, and recording the CO2 levels, one has increased the overall CO2 level more than without such labels.
Proving that this is about agenda pushing rather than any sort of 'inform the public"

what agenda?

 

[StankApe]

uh huh......

“Plain and not honest is too harsh a style."- Richard III

 

[DC]

uh huh......

“Plain and not honest is too harsh a style."- Richard III

can't answer it? why?

 

[StankApe]

you have an agenda. all it takes is reading any 2 threads of which you participate.

be proud, don't try and cover it up, but don't try and play like you are "just asking questions" either

 

[DC]

you have an agenda. all it takes is reading any 2 threads of which you participate.

be proud, don't try and cover it up, but don't try and play like you are "just asking questions" either

what is my agenda? tell me.

 

[StankApe]

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with you dude.

I'm not going to spell out your obvious envirornmental agenda only for you to deny it, and blah blah blah blah.... (or because I omit some little part of it, you will call me names and employ a bunch of dismissive BS....etc )

Your discussions with Dinwar have made it abundantly clear you aren't interested in discussion, you are only interested in forcing your POV on the world. I'm just glad that most people don't care

 

[DC]

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with you dude.

I'm not going to spell out your obvious envirornmental agenda only for you to deny it, and blah blah blah blah.... (or because I omit some little part of it, you will call me names and employ a bunch of dismissive BS....etc )

Your discussions with Dinwar have made it abundantly clear you aren't interested in discussion, you are only interested in forcing your POV on the world. I'm just glad that most people don't care

i am interested in debates, especially about enviromental issues. but not with AGW deniers.
i am not in a position to force my POV on anyone. but i also do not need to accept other POV just so.

when you don't give f about the enviroment, well that's your thing. just happy more and more people are starting to take eforts to reduce their CO2 footprint.

 

[Dr. Keith]

As someone who has been responsible for managing the labeling on consumer products this sounds like the worst idea ever and is therefore likely to be implemented.

As someone has pointed out, how do you calculate the most CO2 intensive portion of production for some products: final delivery. Your own example, shrimp. I'd like to hear how you can simply and accurately reflect the CO2 impact of shrimp shipped from one part of Europe to another. Remember, the shrimp will be shipped by the most economical means that meets the timing needs of the distributor. So, depending on where the shrimp is going it may be sent by ship, rail, truck, air freight, or some combination of the above. In fact, the exact same grade of shrimp at the same shop may have different itineraries for different weeks based solely on the fluctuations in shipping rates or on a trucking strike in one country, or a harbor strike in another. Logistics is not a simple matter for perishable goods.

OK, now that you have addressed the calculation, lets talk about the label. Is it on the package of shrimp or just posted near the shrimp? What about prepackaged products, say a box of cereal? Does the grocer have to apply the label upon receipt or does the distributor apply it in transit? What if the cereal is stored in a heated warehouse for some time, do we update the label? What if the goods are delivered to a store to be sold but the store is overstocked and sends the goods back to the warehouse and the goods are sold to liquidator? Does the liquidator then have to update the labels or does the discount store update the labels after they buy from the liquidator?

I get the idea of having more information and letting consumers make decisions based on that information. It is appealing and I generally agree. What I don't think you are getting is that the calculations you propose are simple in the abstract but damn near imposible in practice. And even once you have them figured out, applying the label itself is a bit more than a minor hassle.

So, the above mentioned website may be the best answer, and those sellers who want to promote their low CO2 footprint can point consumers to the relevant portions of that website for more information, or can print some information on their labels voluntarily.

 

[StankApe]

I'm not a denier. I just don't give a crap. Big difference.

I look at the earth in geologic time. It was once much warmer, and at another time much colder. It will be both of those things again. regardless of what malfeasances we may may partake in environmentally.

Even if we launched all the world's nukes today, in a few thousand years, life would be teeming on the surface again. I find that pretty amazing actually.

So spare the indignation. I'll be long dead before any of this matters anyway. and If not, I'll get the amusement of watching everyone losing their minds over it!!

 

[StankApe]

As someone who has been responsible for managing the labeling on consumer products this sounds like the worst idea ever and is therefore likely to be implemented.

As someone has pointed out, how do you calculate the most CO2 intensive portion of production for some products: final delivery. Your own example, shrimp. I'd like to hear how you can simply and accurately reflect the CO2 impact of shrimp shipped from one part of Europe to another. Remember, the shrimp will be shipped by the most economical mens that meets the timing needs of the distributor. So, depending on where the shrimp is going it may be sent by ship, rail, truck, air freight, or some combination of the above. In fact, the exact same grade of shrimp at the same shop may have different itineraries for different weeks based solely on the fluctuations in shipping rates or on a trucking strike in one country, or a harbor strike in another. Logistics is not a simple matter for perishable goods.

OK, now that you have addressed the calculation, lets talk about the label. Is it on the package of shrimp or just posted near the shrimp? What about prepackaged products, say a box of cereal? Does the grocer have to apply the label upon receipt or does the distributor apply it in transit? What if the cereal is stored in a heated warehouse for some time, do we update the label? What if the goods are delivered to a store to be sold but the store is overstocked and sends the goods back to the warehouse and the goods are sold to liquidator? Does the liquidator then have to update the labels or does the discount store update the labels after they buy from the liquidator?

I get the idea of having more information and letting consumers make decisions based on that information. It is appealing and I generally agree. What I don't think you are getting is that the calculations you propose are simple in the abstract but damn near imposible in practice. And even once you have them figured out, applying the label itself is a bit more than a minor hassle.

So, the above mentioned website may be the best answer, and those sellers who want to promote their low CO2 footprint can point consumers to the relevant portions of that website for more information, or can print some information on their labels voluntarily.

this is exactly what I am on about. There could be 20 shipping trucks at said shipping company, all with varying levels of age and efficiency making any statements about the CO2 impact ridiculously vague and hence worthless.

I don't think the OP cares about that though. It's all scare tactics designed to fear people into following their lifestyle.

it's the same basic plan that religious fundamentalists use.

 

[DC]

As someone who has been responsible for managing the labeling on consumer products this sounds like the worst idea ever and is therefore likely to be implemented.

As someone has pointed out, how do you calculate the most CO2 intensive portion of production for some products: final delivery. Your own example, shrimp. I'd like to hear how you can simply and accurately reflect the CO2 impact of shrimp shipped from one part of Europe to another. Remember, the shrimp will be shipped by the most economical means that meets the timing needs of the distributor. So, depending on where the shrimp is going it may be sent by ship, rail, truck, air freight, or some combination of the above. In fact, the exact same grade of shrimp at the same shop may have different itineraries for different weeks based solely on the fluctuations in shipping rates or on a trucking strike in one country, or a harbor strike in another. Logistics is not a simple matter for perishable goods.

OK, now that you have addressed the calculation, lets talk about the label. Is it on the package of shrimp or just posted near the shrimp? What about prepackaged products, say a box of cereal? Does the grocer have to apply the label upon receipt or does the distributor apply it in transit? What if the cereal is stored in a heated warehouse for some time, do we update the label? What if the goods are delivered to a store to be sold but the store is overstocked and sends the goods back to the warehouse and the goods are sold to liquidator? Does the liquidator then have to update the labels or does the discount store update the labels after they buy from the liquidator?

I get the idea of having more information and letting consumers make decisions based on that information. It is appealing and I generally agree. What I don't think you are getting is that the calculations you propose are simple in the abstract but damn near imposible in practice. And even once you have them figured out, applying the label itself is a bit more than a minor hassle.

So, the above mentioned website may be the best answer, and those sellers who want to promote their low CO2 footprint can point consumers to the relevant portions of that website for more information, or can print some information on their labels voluntarily.

the shrimps are going by truck to Marokko and then back to germany in a truck also.

 

[DC]

I'm not a denier. I just don't give a crap. Big difference.

I look at the earth in geologic time. It was once much warmer, and at another time much colder. It will be both of those things again. regardless of what malfeasances we may may partake in environmentally.

Even if we launched all the world's nukes today, in a few thousand years, life would be teeming on the surface again. I find that pretty amazing actually.

So spare the indignation. I'll be long dead before any of this matters anyway. and If not, I'll get the amusement of watching everyone losing their minds over it!!

that's even worse than deniers. knowing it and don't giving a crap, can't get more egoistic than that. amazing. atleast you are honest about it.

 

[DC]

As someone who has been responsible for managing the labeling on consumer products this sounds like the worst idea ever and is therefore likely to be implemented.

As someone has pointed out, how do you calculate the most CO2 intensive portion of production for some products: final delivery. Your own example, shrimp. I'd like to hear how you can simply and accurately reflect the CO2 impact of shrimp shipped from one part of Europe to another. Remember, the shrimp will be shipped by the most economical means that meets the timing needs of the distributor. So, depending on where the shrimp is going it may be sent by ship, rail, truck, air freight, or some combination of the above. In fact, the exact same grade of shrimp at the same shop may have different itineraries for different weeks based solely on the fluctuations in shipping rates or on a trucking strike in one country, or a harbor strike in another. Logistics is not a simple matter for perishable goods.

OK, now that you have addressed the calculation, lets talk about the label. Is it on the package of shrimp or just posted near the shrimp? What about prepackaged products, say a box of cereal? Does the grocer have to apply the label upon receipt or does the distributor apply it in transit? What if the cereal is stored in a heated warehouse for some time, do we update the label? What if the goods are delivered to a store to be sold but the store is overstocked and sends the goods back to the warehouse and the goods are sold to liquidator? Does the liquidator then have to update the labels or does the discount store update the labels after they buy from the liquidator?

I get the idea of having more information and letting consumers make decisions based on that information. It is appealing and I generally agree. What I don't think you are getting is that the calculations you propose are simple in the abstract but damn near imposible in practice. And even once you have them figured out, applying the label itself is a bit more than a minor hassle.

So, the above mentioned website may be the best answer, and those sellers who want to promote their low CO2 footprint can point consumers to the relevant portions of that website for more information, or can print some information on their labels voluntarily.

i understand that its very difficult to calculate and will never be really accurate. but still we often have products on the shelf with highly different CO2 footprints and we have no way of knowing it atm. such labels might provide us with usefull information if its handled properly. or maybe not.

but i think a CO2 tax will solve that problem anyway. it will simply not be profitable to truck shrimps from germany to north afrika and back once you can't dump CO2 into the atmosphere for free anymore.

 

[StankApe]

I find it hilarious that you can't see the complete lack of ego in my statement and the overwhelming egomania of your statements!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

You are claiming that everyone either lives like you do or the world is gonna end. That's Jesus Freak tactics 101.


I think ANYONE who has a "cause" that defines them as a person is silly, and very very boring. it's the kind of thing I'd expect from a upper middle class college student who has never actually had to work for a living or pay taxes and is ignorant of the real world.v



btw: I never said people should do nothing at all in regards to the environment, but i think the labeling thing is really silly, I also think scare tactics that claim we can avert global warming are unrealistic and pointless. Go try this method in China and India, you know the two places where nothing is going to change for a few hundred years. (not that much will change in the USA either, we have a large population and they need cars, and too many people rely on 2nd hand vehicle purchases as they can't afford a $38,000 hybrid or wtvr. )

If tomorrow, a 100% clean vehicle debuted, it wouldn't change a thing. 20% of the population would buy it so they can be smug and point out how much they "care" by the time it hit the secondary market in large enough numbers to make any sort of difference the Chinese will have probably increased their emissions so much it probably wouldn't even break even.


it's apathy sir, cuz I'm a realist. enjoy the life you've chosen, but keep it to yourself