Kyoto without the US and...?

[Drooper]

Re: Re: Re: Kyoto without the US and...?

I checked your link and the only comment I have is wtf do they get up to on the US Virgin Islands? It appears thier main passtime must be burning stuff.....

It is th locaton of one of the world's largest oil refineries, from which the carbon allocation is spread among a mere 100,000 population.

Which leads to another absurdity of the Kyoto style approach.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Kyoto without the US and...?

It is th locaton of one of the world's largest oil refineries, from which the carbon allocation is spread among a mere 100,000 population.

Which leads to another absurdity of the Kyoto style approach.

Bring on Kyoto II. I'm all for moving on to the improved version.

 

[DaChew]

Absolutely the ONLY thing that Kyoto has accomplished has been the creation of a new commodity market completely, utterly and literally, out of thin air. The market provides strong incentives for poor countries (or the governments of poor countries) to not industrialize and increase carbon dioxide output. Governments of non-industrialized countries will continue to be allotted carbon dioxide credits which they can turn around and sell for billions on the carbon exchange to industrialized countries that need them.

The Kyoto protocol is not about pollution, it's not about global warming, it's about money.

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: Kyoto without the US and...?

I think the rationale behind it was basically a question of "fairness." Countries like China and India are indeed major emitters of CO2, but since those countries are so populous their per capita CO2 emissions are still much smaller than in North America and Europe, since their economies aren't as developed. So, developing countries were reluctant to cut their emissions, and therefore jeopardise some of their future growth, to the same degree as developed countries.

Another reason I think was the feeling that, since most of the CO2 emitted so far has been by the developed countries, then they should be the ones that take the lead in sorting it out.

Edited to add: If anybody's interested, here is a ranked table of total and per capita emissions for each country in the year 2000.

So if I understand right, the effect on the planet depends not on the amount of CO2 generated, but on the amount of CO2 per capita?

So all we have to do to make a significant reduction in global warming is all join together as one big nation and the average will go down so much that there won't be a problem for a long time.

And, since the developing countries didn't have to grow through the trials and costs of the industrial revolution (polution and all), they should only be allowed to industrialize according to the best current standards of the developed countries. Seems fair?

 

[Brian the Snail]

Re: Re: Re: Kyoto without the US and...?

So if I understand right, the effect on the planet depends not on the amount of CO2 generated, but on the amount of CO2 per capita?

So all we have to do to make a significant reduction in global warming is all join together as one big nation and the average will go down so much that there won't be a problem for a long time.

Obviously with respect to the effect on the planet it doesn't matter whether the CO2 molecules are emitted from the U.S. or are emitted from India. The question is whether it is fair to expect poorer countries (that might well have more pressing concerns) to make the same cuts as richer ones.

I'm not saying that I agree completely with their arguments. I'm simply stating them in answer to your question.

And, since the developing countries didn't have to grow through the trials and costs of the industrial revolution (polution and all), they should only be allowed to industrialize according to the best current standards of the developed countries. Seems fair?

With regards to CO2 emissions, the developing world is industrializing according to the best current standards of the developed countries. That's the problem.

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Kyoto without the US and...?

With regards to CO2 emissions, the developing world is industrializing according to the best current standards of the developed countries. That's the problem.

I don't think WE are applying our best current standards. I doubt they are.

 

[Zep]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kyoto without the US and...?

I don't think WE are applying our best current standards. I doubt they are.

Perhaps everyone could agree to do something about that particular situation, then.

Say! We could all meet in the old capital of Japan and sign a protocol...

 

[peptoabysmal]

I find it disappointing that the US is not joining the Kyoto treaty; except for the issue of allowing the two largest and in many regards fastest growing economies on the planet to be excluded.

I believe the US has objected to China and India being excluded, but I don't understand the rational behind allowing them to do so. Is their economic growth more important to the planet than reducing global warming, or is their growth more valuable than that of the USA?

What is the real reason?

Kyoto is designed to punish countries which have a higher per capita production of CO₂. If fully implemented, the best estimate is that it could lower the global temperature average by 0.18° C. Not exactly a stellar result. Russia stands to make a huge profit selling carbon stocks (for lack of a better term) even though it is a large industrial nation because of its low per capita.

While global warming is a problem and now most scientists agree that civilization has had an effect on global warming, what is the best solution? Why does the US need the Kyoto treaty to start reducing CO₂ emission?

I hope that Bush will direct the US towards reducing CO₂ and other pollution in ways that make sense economically, but we should stay clear of the Kyoto scam.

 

[AWPrime]

Re: Re: Kyoto without the US and...?

I hope that Bush will direct the US towards reducing CO₂ and other pollution in ways that make sense economically, but we should stay clear of the Kyoto scam.

WOW, you have a lot of hope!