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Kyoto Debunked

EvilYeti said:


A skeptic (which you are not), would be SKEPTICAL of an unreviewed paper published by two non-scientists in a non-science "journal". Especially since its critical of work done by scientists, reviewed by scientists and published in a science journal.

I'm all for debate, but the participents have to play by the rules for it to have any meaning. M&M refuse to, ergo their argument and conclusions are meaningless.

A SKEPTIC loks to the evidence.

All I have seen you do is make appeal to authority, make ad hominem attack (as in this post above) etc.

And I'm not sure what fallacy this falls under:

"M&M refuse [to "play by the rules"], ergo their argument and conclusions are meaningless."

Whichever, it carries no weight at all.
 
Drooper said:


A SKEPTIC loks to the evidence.

All I have seen you do is make appeal to authority, make ad hominem attack (as in this post above) etc.

And I'm not sure what fallacy this falls under:

"M&M refuse [to "play by the rules"], ergo their argument and conclusions are meaningless."

Whichever, it carries no weight at all.

A SKEPTIC also has to realise his limitations. As has already been pointed out in another thread on this subject, an everyday interpretation of a scientific paper may be entirely wrong.

"regional" gas levels for the layman would mean the gas level in that geographic region, for a climatoligist, the height of the atmosphere above sea level. Two completely different things.
 
a_unique_person said:


A SKEPTIC also has to realise his limitations. As has already been pointed out in another thread on this subject, an everyday interpretation of a scientific paper may be entirely wrong.

"regional" gas levels for the layman would mean the gas level in that geographic region, for a climatoligist, the height of the atmosphere above sea level. Two completely different things.

Granted.

However, a paper that tries to replicate a time series from original data sources and obtains dramtically contrasting results needs to be looked at and treated on its merits.

The Hockey Stick was at the centre of COP3 and has been used again and again to drive opinion and policy on this issue.

M&M have made a startling claim - that it is fundamentally flawed due to poor data. These are errors that would not be picked up in peer review, since such review does not act to replicate either experimentation, nor data construction/manipulation.

This is the big flaw in Yeti's outright dismissal of M&Ms paper. He claims that peer review in a journal such as Nature is the Gold Standard for verifcation of the results and conclusions of any contributiuon to research. However, the process does not do what M&M have done - try to replicate (in their words audit) the original data work.

Here is a classic example:

Benveniste's homeopathy paper was published in Nature, following the normal peer review process. We now know it was complete garbage. The reason it slipped into Nature was because the peer reviewers only read the paper, check for process and, results and conculsions. What they do not do is conduct an investigation into the way any data was obtained, conduct tests on the data to test erros/flaws, or try to replicate any statistical trnaformation or manipulation of the data. In the case of Benveniste, this was eventually done (with the help of Randi) and the results of the paper fell apart.

Now, Benveniste's paper was on a topic almost universally scorned on by scientists. It took little effort to obtain and publish an "audit" of the paper and for this audit to be accepted at face value.

In the case of Mann et al, this is AGW that Nature, as policy has bought into completely. M&M are doing no more than the Nature sponsored audit of Benveniste's paper. Just like Benveniste, Mann and co-authors need to respond to the results.

Bystanders, like Yeti, need to watch the debate unfold. No, more than that, they need to encourage the debate. I am one to encourage the debate.
 
Yet the failures also provoke revision. The scientific process at work.

M&M, if they are serious about getting their work reviewed, should publish it in a recognised, peer reviewed journal. Not because this will prove it to be true beyond doubt, but because it is one more step in a recognised process that has the best chance of showing it to be true.

Publishing in E&E, which is not a recognised journal, seems to imply their work cannot stand up to standard scrutiny. E&E, if you look at it's publications, seems to specialise in AGW rebuttals. Their bias on this issue makes them questionable, also.
 
Drooper said:

A SKEPTIC looks to the evidence.

Agreed. Have you?

All I have seen you do is make appeal to authority, make ad hominem attack (as in this post above) etc.

Funny. I seem to remember you casting aspersions on my skepticism in this thread.
And, for the thousandth time, there is nothing wrong with an appeal to authority if the indivudal is a recognized expert in the field. Like Mann is in paleoclimatology. You are making and INVALID appeal to authority by claiming that M&M are on to something, because they say so.

And I'm not sure what fallacy this falls under:

"M&M refuse [to "play by the rules"], ergo their argument and conclusions are meaningless."

Whichever, it carries no weight at all.
It means there is a methodolgy to science, if you refuse to adbide by that methodology then you are not doing science. For example, not using a rigid double-blind protocol for experiments. The results may turn out to be valid and reproducible, but as they were obtained in a non-scientific manner they cannot be used to draw conclusions.

In this case, M&M did not follow protocol for an audit (they did not inform the author of the audit or allow a rebuttal prior to publication) and did not publish in a reviewed science journal. I freely admit its possible they may be on to something, just like all the applicants to the million-dollar-challenge may have paranormal abilities, but until they follow protocol and allow some sort of third-party verification I won't buy it.

I've read their analyses, Mann's response and their follow-up's now that they finally figured out where all the proxy data is kept. It's transparently obvious that they have no idea what to do with it, which isn't surprising considering neither of them have a science background.
 
Drooper said:

However, a paper that tries to replicate a time series from original data sources and obtains dramtically contrasting results needs to be looked at and treated on its merits.

Except M&M haven't done that, they used collated data from one of Mann's assistants which had errors in it. They have been provided with the original data sources, which they are unable to understand. Probably because they are a couple of amateurs.

M&M have made a startling claim - that it is fundamentally flawed due to poor data. These are errors that would not be picked up in peer review, since such review does not act to replicate either experimentation, nor data construction/manipulation.

What about the other independent reconstructions that came to a similar conclusion?


fig1.png



Was that all based on bad data as well? Has M&M produced a seperate audit of the proxy data? If not now do they know everyone else's is flawed?

This is the big flaw in Yeti's outright dismissal of M&Ms paper. He claims that peer review in a journal such as Nature is the Gold Standard for verifcation of the results and conclusions of any contributiuon to research. However, the process does not do what M&M have done - try to replicate (in their words audit) the original data work.

Except you are lying, I didn't dimiss their paper outright at all. Go back and read the thread, I was ambivalent at first and only dismissed it once their biases and flawed methodolgy were made known.
Again, M&M have NOT replicated the work from the original data sources. They don't know how to. Don't you think that makes the case that they are not competent to provide a proper audit of the research in question?

Now, Benveniste's paper was on a topic almost universally scorned on by scientists. It took little effort to obtain and publish an "audit" of the paper and for this audit to be accepted at face value.

And the audit was reviewed an published in Nature, where it should have been. How do you know "little effort" was put into the review of the audit? Were you one of the reviewers?

In the case of Mann et al, this is AGW that Nature, as policy has bought into completely. M&M are doing no more than the Nature sponsored audit of Benveniste's paper. Just like Benveniste, Mann and co-authors need to respond to the results.

Now you are accusing Nature of being biased ?!?!?!?! On what basis do you make that claim, other than it publishes results that contradict your dogmatic religion?
M&M have yet to provide an audit based on the ORIGINAL data sources and PUBLISH it in a SCIENCE JOURNAL. Mann, etal., are publishing a response anyway, in the proper peer reviewed fashion. Will you accept that as the last word? Somehow I doubt it.

Bystanders, like Yeti, need to watch the debate unfold. No, more than that, they need to encourage the debate. I am one to encourage the debate.

If you are such a big fan of debate, why do you encourage cheaters like M&M? Shouldn't debate be honest and rational for it to have any meaning?
 
EvilYeti said:


If you are such a big fan of debate, why do you encourage cheaters like M&M? Shouldn't debate be honest and rational for it to have any meaning?

There you go with that ad hominem again. You won't sway anybody like that.


The data issues are in the public domain.


1. M&M requested the data from Mann.

2. Mann provided dat.

3. M&M tried to replicate Mann from the original data, but obtained contrasting results.

4. I response, Mann claimed that there was an error(s) in the data that M&M used; he claimed that they should have used his data available from an FTP site. (a bit strange that?)

5. M&M went to FTP sites where Mann kept his data and found that this data (the file properties confirmed that it was contemporaneous with Mann's work and not recently altered) was identical to the data that Mann originally provided them and that they used in there own work.

This is the chain of events and does not indicate that M&M's results were the product of using different original data.


What's wrong with addressing the facts Yeti??
 
Oh, and on some of your other points, Yeti.


You seem to be confusing "review" and "audit".

In a journal review, the data is not checked for errors. Neither is any process of data collation or production replicated. I know this from having reviewed Journal articles myself. I am very sure Mann's paper, and any paper submitted to Nature gets the same treatment.


Secondly, I am not "accusing Nature of bias". I simpply highlighted a case that proved my point, vis. data is not checked in the review process and experiments are not replicated. Review is about checking for the efficacy of the theory and its application, the flow to results and the extent to which the conclusions are properly supported.

What I did add was that Benveniste's paper was on a topic that everybody wanted to debunk (for obvious reasons), so there was little obstacle in the way of this happening. Mann's paper is now firmly entrenched, not in science, but in global politics as well. As your own fallacy (ad hominem, appeal to authority) based attacks on M&M prove, thee are significant obstacles to anybody who might find substantive erros in Mann's work.


As a final point, you seem to be a little hysterical about all this. It is not as if Mann's paper was not controversial even before M&M's work. It completely wiped out any temperature record of the medievil warm period - something that instantly made most people curious about the results.

[edited to correct tags]
 
One final point on this thread and then I am spent.

I want to give you another example, specific to AGW, where your blind faith in "authority" and "academic review" are badly misplaced.

Here is the background.

As part of COP3, the IPCC needed variables to project CO2 emissions in order to obtain climate forecasts. Part of this process included macroeconomic forecasts for the global economy (note that this is my area of particular academic extpertise). From the growth forecasts came forecast for CO2 emissions, which naturally will rise as incomes and production rise over time.

A range of scenarios were constructed, from low growth to high growth. Low growth, was supposed to give a lower bound to expected CO2 emmission growth.

This task was completed by 53 authors and 89 "expert reviewers".
Let me type that out again for you Yeti. This was subject to expert review by 89 people.

This must be the Gold Standard, should it not Yeti? How could anybody ever question work by 53 expert authors and published by the IPCC and reviewed by 89 expert reviewers.



Here is the problem. It is wrong. Hard as it is to believe, just about any undergradute economist should be able to spot the glaring error in the work, simply by looking at some of the strange results (just like the disappearence of the medievil warm period in Mann's paper).

The result that alerts a redaer to a problem is that the economic growth projections imply that by the end of the century, countries like North Korea, Libya, South Africa, Algeria would be wealthier than the US.

If you accept that this is.. well... unusual, then you dig a bit deeper and audit the data and process. A couple of authors, by the name of Castle and Henderson did this and published their result in, wait for it, Energy and Environment (you still haven't spelt out why anything published in this journal does not even deserve to be read - but I digress).

Without getting bogged down in the detail, the original work made some pretty stupid errors at an early point in the data work and the result was forecast growth rates for the global economy and hence CO2 emissions that were far too high (and this is in the "low growth" scenario).

I think this is worth pointing out, because this is serious and at the heart of IPCC claims and resulting policy. Within the range of forecasts for CO2 emissions driving the IPCC climate forecasts, the "low CO2 growth" scenario is underpinned by ludicriously high economic growth assumption. The lower bound depends on assumptions that would be excessive even for an upper bound.


Just like M&M vs. Mann, there is now some tit-for-tat going on about this issues that is still not resolved. However, the IPCC have presented nothing yet that can satisfactorily counter Castle and Henderson's work. As an expert watching this evolve, my position is that the IPCC work must now be placed in question and the results set aside until this is resolved.



So you see, the review process and authority are not infallible. In fact, when there are people like you around Yeti, who seem to lose all ability to think in the face of this process, it is a massive failing.


This is how The Economist appraised the situation:

Making matters worse, the panel's approach lays great emphasis on peer review of submissions. When the peers in question are drawn from a restricted professional domain—whereas the issues under consideration make demands upon a wide range of professional skills—peer review is not a way to assure the highest standards of work by exposing research to scepticism.


A lack-of-progress report on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change


I think that puts the point well.


Anyway, that is long enough. I doubt you'll digest the contents of this, because it is not published in Nature.


[edited to correct spelling]
 
Drooper said:

1. M&M requested the data from Mann.

Lets stick to the facts, shall we?

M&M requested a condensed version of the original data, not the original data itself.

2. Mann provided data.

Being a busy guy, Mann had an assisstant collate the data and upload it to an ftp site.

3. M&M tried to replicate Mann from the original data, but obtained contrasting results.

Yes, for several reasons. The most important being that the assisstant made mistakes in the collated data.

4. I response, Mann claimed that there was an error(s) in the data that M&M used; he claimed that they should have used his data available from an FTP site. (a bit strange that?)

Nothing strange in the least. It was M&M that requested the data in a collated form. One of Mann's assisstants made a mistake in collating the data, so rather then risk any further errors he suggested M&M collate the data themselves.

5. M&M went to FTP sites where Mann kept his data and found that this data (the file properties confirmed that it was contemporaneous with Mann's work and not recently altered) was identical to the data that Mann originally provided them and that they used in there own work.

Except thats a lie. McIntyre can't even figure out how to read the raw data on the ftp site, let alone audit it, as evidenced by the following question to David Appell, a science journalist covering this isssue.
I received a message from Steve McIntyre yesterday asking if I "had any luck identifying the 159 series in question at ftp://holocene.evsc.virginia.edu/pub/MBH98/ ? I'm not trying to be argumentative here; I really can't identify them and I'm very knowledgeable about this data."
And we are supposed to take his claims of an audit seriously?

This is the chain of events and does not indicate that M&M's results were the product of using different original data.

This a complete fabrication on your part. Anyone can go back and read about the entire debacle on http://www.davidappell.com

What's wrong with addressing the facts Yeti??

Nothing, do you plan doing it anytime soon? You could start my commenting on the figure I've attached above showing other reconstructions that have replicated Mann's findings.
 
Drooper said:

You seem to be confusing "review" and "audit".

You seem to be confusing "biased junk science" with "audit".

In a journal review, the data is not checked for errors. Neither is any process of data collation or production replicated. I know this from having reviewed Journal articles myself. I am very sure Mann's paper, and any paper submitted to Nature gets the same treatment.

Yes, including audits. Otherwise who's to say whether the audit followed a correct methodology or not? Especially if the people doing the audit are amateurs? This is why I've said the correct place for M&M to publish would be Nature, or least some other reviewed science journal. Instead they chose to publish in an unreviewed "academic debate" journal. Now why would they do something like that, perhaps they aren't so confident in their results?

Secondly, I am not "accusing Nature of bias". I simpply highlighted a case that proved my point, vis. data is not checked in the review process and experiments are not replicated. Review is about checking for the efficacy of the theory and its application, the flow to results and the extent to which the conclusions are properly supported.

Why don't you comment on the other temperature reconstructions that have replicated Mann's work? Who else has replicated M&M's audit?

What I did add was that Benveniste's paper was on a topic that everybody wanted to debunk (for obvious reasons), so there was little obstacle in the way of this happening. Mann's paper is now firmly entrenched, not in science, but in global politics as well. As your own fallacy (ad hominem, appeal to authority) based attacks on M&M prove, thee are significant obstacles to anybody who might find substantive erros in Mann's work.

I would LOVE Mann to be proven wrong. I have no vested interest in supporting AGW. Unfortunately, non of the "skeptics" seem to have any sort of understanding of science or the scientific method. The vast majority of them also have ties to the oil industry, which does little to answer questions I have of any potential bias on their part. I'm reminded of the tobacco lobby's scientists that have "proven" cigarretes don't cause cancer.

As a final point, you seem to be a little hysterical about all this. It is not as if Mann's paper was not controversial even before M&M's work. It completely wiped out any temperature record of the medievil warm period - something that instantly made most people curious about the results.

[edited to correct tags]

Thats your opinion, like everything else you've posted in this thread. And wrong, as usual. I will admit to being highly pissed off that a couple of biased amateurs can slander the work of a real scientist so easily, but that is getting off topic.

Regarding the Medieval warm period, the prevailing theory these days is that there was no such thing. Go read the following paper for more details.
Bradley, R. S., M. K. Hughes, H. F. Diaz, 2003: Climate in Medieval time. Science, 302, 404-405.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ABSTRACT

Climate in Medieval time is often said to have been as warm as, or warmer than, it is "today." Such a statement might seem innocuous. But for those opposed to action on global warming, it has become a cause célèbre: If it was warmer in Medieval time than it is today, it could not have been due to fossil fuel consumption. This (so the argument goes) would demonstrate that warming in the 20th century may have been just another natural fluctuation that does not warrant political action to curb fossil fuel use.

Careful examination of this argument must focus on three issues: the timing of the purported temperature anomaly, its geographical extent, and its magnitude relative to temperatures in the 20th century. The latter issue is especially important, because advocates of a warm Medieval episode commonly argue that solar irradiance was as high in Medieval time as in the 20th century. They maintain that 20th-century global warming was largely driven by this solar forcing, not by increasing greenhouse gas concentrations.

The balance of evidence does not point to a High Medieval period that was as warm as or warmer than the late 20th century. However, more climate records are required to explain the likely causes for climate variations over the last millennium and to fully understand natural climate variability, which will certainly accompany future anthropogenic effects on climate.

Maybe you should stop getting your "science" from John Daly's website?
 
Drooper said:
One final point on this thread and then I am spent.

Sigh, looks like one more "Drooper Debunking" for me today!

I want to give you another example, specific to AGW, where your blind faith in "authority" and "academic review" are badly misplaced.

I have faith in science and the scientific method. Peer review is part of the process buddy, like it or not.

Here is the problem. It is wrong. Hard as it is to believe, just about any undergradute economist should be able to spot the glaring error in the work, simply by looking at some of the strange results (just like the disappearence of the medievil warm period in Mann's paper).

Thats fine and dandy, but considering you are clueless about the current research on the Medieval warm period I don't believe what you have to say on economics either. Sorry dude, you are going to have to research your position a bit better if you want anyone here to take you seriously.

The result that alerts a redaer to a problem is that the economic growth projections imply that by the end of the century, countries like North Korea, Libya, South Africa, Algeria would be wealthier than the US.

I've also seen economic cost projections of the Kyoto protocol in the 18 quadrillion dollar range. Which leads me to distrust these anti-Kyoto projections.

If you accept that this is.. well... unusual, then you dig a bit deeper and audit the data and process. A couple of authors, by the name of Castle and Henderson did this and published their result in, wait for it, Energy and Environment (you still haven't spelt out why anything published in this journal does not even deserve to be read - but I digress).

Is an unreviewed non-science journal published by an agenda-driven editor. Seeing as it has zero standards for what it publishes I personally don't care to read it, much like I don't care to read the "Weekly World News".
The fact that they have published cranks like Landscheidt, a career astrologer, doesn't help their reputation either.

Without getting bogged down in the detail, the original work made some pretty stupid errors at an early point in the data work and the result was forecast growth rates for the global economy and hence CO2 emissions that were far too high (and this is in the "low growth" scenario).

Why don't you provide some references to this so the forum may persuse the results themselves? Considering the amount of disinformation you have provided in this thread you'll have to forgive me if I question your conclusion.

I think this is worth pointing out, because this is serious and at the heart of IPCC claims and resulting policy. Within the range of forecasts for CO2 emissions driving the IPCC climate forecasts, the "low CO2 growth" scenario is underpinned by ludicriously high economic growth assumption. The lower bound depends on assumptions that would be excessive even for an upper bound.

Except the lower bound of the IPCC climate forecasts is less then our current emissions! How is forecasting that our CO2 emissions might DECREASE over the next 100 years being "excessive"? Sounds like C&H are just as full of baloney as M&M!

So you see, the review process and authority are not infallible. In fact, when there are people like you around Yeti, who seem to lose all ability to think in the face of this process, it is a massive failing.

Yeah, whatever. On what basis do you say the IPCC conclusions are just "wrong"? Because a paper in E&E says so? How is that not an "argument from authority"? Why are you so confident in Castle and Henderson?
Oh yeah, they reinforce your dogmatic belief system.

This is how The Economist appraised the situation:

I think that puts the point well.

Of course, peer-review is a flawed methodology because an op-ed piece in the Economist says so. I stand in awe of your impeccable references! ;)

Anyway, that is long enough. I doubt you'll digest the contents of this, because it is not published in Nature.

Yeah, I have this bad habit of getting science from trusted sources of science. When will I ever learn?
 
Drooper,

Thank you for the thoughtfully reasoned posts. I enjoyed reading them. I also think your pretty much on the mark.

If you haven't already noticed, trying to discuss something with yeti gets tends to get old. His chronic use of ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority don't make for a very interesting discussion. Not to mention misrepresentations of statements by others and throwing in exaggerations like the following statement by him.

Originally posted by EvilYeti
I've also seen economic cost projections of the Kyoto protocol in the 600 quadrillion dollar range. Which leads me to distrust these anti-Kyoto projections.

Now if I threw out a figure like $600 quadrillion at least I'd try to provide a link to where I got the figure. I don't think we will see yeti providing one any time soon.

The largest figure I've seen involved with Kyoto is the $18 quadrillion figure I cited in my opening post. According to the article, IPCC came up with that figure. Not the people in the anti-Kyoto camp.

If he can't provide a link, I can only assume he was intending to use mine and exaggerated it by a factor of 33.3. Seems like I might have found a way to gauge his veracity. Let's see now. Dividing 100% veracity by 33.3, comes out to his veracity being about 3% of content. Might well be a valid assessment, unless of course he can come up with a link that cites his figure. I'm perfectly willing to adjust my veracity gauge if necessary.
 
BobK said:
Drooper,

Thank you for the thoughtfully reasoned posts. I enjoyed reading them. I also think your pretty much on the mark.

If you haven't already noticed, trying to discuss something with yeti gets tends to get old. His chronic use of ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority don't make for a very interesting discussion. Not to mention misrepresentations of statements by others and throwing in exaggerations like the following statement by him.

An appeal to authority is actually what you are doing. It is an 'appeal to authority' fallacy when you refer to people who are not recognised experts, and trust what they say. This is precisely what M&M are doing, and you are trusting them. Yeti is referring to trusting information that has come through the scientific process, which has been shown to be the best way yet to come to scientific truth.
 
a_unique_person said:


An appeal to authority is actually what you are doing. It is an 'appeal to authority' fallacy when you refer to people who are not recognised experts, and trust what they say. This is precisely what M&M are doing, and you are trusting them. Yeti is referring to trusting information that has come through the scientific process, which has been shown to be the best way yet to come to scientific truth.

Maybe you could point me to where I said I fully trust M&M's assessment. Just quote me in context is all I ask.
 
Just thought I'd bump this thread to give a small demonstration of yeti's veracity.

Three post up, I quote part of yeti's post just above mine.

He makes the absurd statement of fact, that he has seen a figure of 600 quadrillion dollars as the projected cost of Kyoto. That's about 8 paragraphs into his post.

Now this is a lie. I only called it an exaggeration because I usually try to be somewhat tactful in my posts. But he really did state it as a fact.

I wouldn't be inclined to make any more of it until I realized what he did after I called on him to link to the figure.

He never posted again in the thread, but more than 24hrs later he took the trouble to edit his post. Lo and behold, today I read his edited post and find he has changed his statement to say 18 quadrillion instead of his original 600 quadrillion.

He gives no reason for the edit, but you would think that anybody of any integrity would have noted the reason for the edit, since it reflects directly on the post that follows it. Mine.

This leaves me looking like I've misquoted him for some unknown reason.

This is just another one of the juvenile things that yeti does to try to make himself look good.

That, along with personal attacks, (somewhere in the thread he called me ignorant) which I simply ignored, constantly misrepresenting other posters positions, ignoring pointed questions from others when they're not convenient, and chronic appeals to authority, leaves me with the feeling that he isn't a very open-minded person.

Maybe as he matures he will become better at exchanging ideas with others instead of twisting things to what he wishes the discussion was about.

For those of you that haven't read this thread, most of it is pretty good, with some exceptions.

By the way. I voted yes in the poll yeti posted. At the present time I have no reason to adjust my veracity gauge concerning yeti. It's still at 3% of content.
 
BobK said:
The largest figure I've seen involved with Kyoto is the $18 quadrillion figure I cited in my opening post. According to the article, IPCC came up with that figure. Not the people in the anti-Kyoto camp.

The link you gave in your OP:

http://www.enn.com/news/2003-10-28/s_9820.asp

doesn't say that the cost associated with Kyoto is $18 quadrillion, it's the maximum projected total cost over the next 100 years. FYI Kyoto runs until 2012. And this figure is a bit misleading - as it says in the article:

The IPCC says all but one scenario for climate costs — the $18 quadrillion tag — would cut world GDP by 1 percent or less by 2050. "It has negligible impacts on the projected economic growth," the IPCC said in a report this month.

Even the strictest constraints would brake GDP by only 4.5 percent in 2050. Quadrillions of dollars apparently evaporate because they start in 1990 dollars and get eroded by inflation.
 
a_unique_person said:


You don't trust their assessment then?

The post that you quoted was a challenge to you to point out where I was using them as "an appeal to authority".

That was what you asserted in your last post before you left the thread.

I can only assume you left the thread before, because you found out you were incorrect in your assertion and didn't want to admit to the error. Or you intentionally misrepresented my position because that is your nature. Which was it? Error or nature. Or show me where I used them as an "appeal to authority".

You seem to be on the same wavelength as yeti when it comes to misrepresenting other people's posts.

I take no one source as being infallible.

If you read my posts in this thread you wouldn't have to ask, and I think you did read them.

Maybe english is too hard for you to comprehend? What's your native language?

I simply think their audit deserves futher investigation and so does Mann's hockeystick graph. After all, Mann did do away with the medieval warming period that was generally accepted by researchers in many fields.

Are you even curious?
 
Brian the Snail said:


The link you gave in your OP:

http://www.enn.com/news/2003-10-28/s_9820.asp

doesn't say that the cost associated with Kyoto is $18 quadrillion, it's the maximum projected total cost over the next 100 years. FYI Kyoto runs until 2012. And this figure is a bit misleading - as it says in the article:
quote:
The IPCC says all but one scenario for climate costs — the $18 quadrillion tag — would cut world GDP by 1 percent or less by 2050. "It has negligible impacts on the projected economic growth," the IPCC said in a report this month.

Even the strictest constraints would brake GDP by only 4.5 percent in 2050. Quadrillions of dollars apparently evaporate because they start in 1990 dollars and get eroded by inflation.

Rather nit-picky saying that Kyoto will only go until 2012. It's intended to be an ongoing process after that. Changing the name later doesn't change the proposed process.

I'll grant you that the $18quad figure is the IPCC estimate of the upper bound of costs. Their lower bound is said to be in the 100's of trillions of dollars. Have you ever known any large government program to come in under the estimates?

If you read my other posts, such as on page two you'll have a better idea of where I'm coming from.
 

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