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Knowledge and/or skill?

kittynh

Penultimate Amazing
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Jamy Ian Swiss gave me one of the biggest thrills of my life....

when he did an up close magic card trick for me at TAM3 (get your minds out of the gutter....)

Anyway, it wasn't a forced pick, and yet he got my card! It WAS magic! The sort of magic that takes your breath away and can't be duplicated by any other form of entertainment.

I don't want to know HOW he did it (though I'd love to have him do it again!).

I like to tell people about the trick and how great Jamy Ian Swiss is. The other day a fellow teacher said, "well, if you knew the trick you could do it too. Anyone can do magic card tricks, they just have to read a book!"

I believe that magic has super stars just like basketball or let's say any other sport. It takes a lot of practice and skill and years of experience to be as good as Jamy Ian Swiss. I really doubt if I could read a book and practice a few weeks and then headline in Vegas. Seriously, aren't there some skills involved in card tricks? And if so what are they, without giving away the magic for me please?

Also, are there some people that just would never be able to do card tricks, well harder ones (some ARE harder right?)
 
kittynh said:
Jamy Ian Swiss gave me one of the biggest thrills of my life....

when he did an up close magic card trick for me at TAM3 (get your minds out of the gutter....)
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He did a magic trick for you at TAM3? That was either one hell of a trick or I missed TAM this year.
 
kittynh said:
Jamy Ian Swiss gave me one of the biggest thrills of my life....

when he did an up close magic card trick for me at TAM3 ....
Click to expand...
So... when you speak about TAM3 in the past tense, are you predicting what card trick Jamy is going to do?

Seriously, I know you mean TAM2, and it was a great trick. I can tell you that I know at least three ways to do a comparable trick, but that does not mean that I could actually perform it myself. I just don't have the skill.

Mr. Randi once described to me how he performed a mind-reading trick. The secret was simple! But that doesn't mean that the trick was easy. It seemed to me that the trick would require a lot of practice. Mr. Randi could explain it and do it. I could explain it, but I have no confidence that I would be able to do it. Mr. Randi has the skill, I don't.

The "skill" isn't necessarily the ability to manipulate objects or misdirect or apply sleight-of-hand. Often, the skill is more in the presentation than in the actual "trick" part.
 
well, I can't do card tricks, but I can view the future, so of course I'm talking about something that's GOING to happen.

But do magicians practice? Not just the performance, but let's say manipulating cards? Or am I making the trick harder than it is?

Is there any physical skill involved?

I remember reading the book "Mr.Mysterious" as a child (I've read it to my children). I love the story of a magician travelling the West in a covered wagon. His son had to practice untying knots with his toes. I always thought magicians had to practice that.
 
kittynh said:
But do magicians practice? Not just the performance, but let's say manipulating cards? Or am I making the trick harder than it is?
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It depends on the trick. I have a wonderful book, "The Expert at the Card Table" by "S.W. Erdnase" (an obvious pseudonym) which shows how to do a variety of card tricks. Some are tricks anyone could do with a few practise runs. Others require well-honed manual dexterity to achieve effects by doing things with cards that a layperson simply would not believe possible.

At least one of the easy tricks is for finding an unforced card pick. If the trick involved two decks of cards being passed back and forth, it wasn't a very difficult trick. Which takes nothing away from the amazing skill of a close-up performer who can knock your socks off with their presentation of such a simple trick.
 
kittynh said:
well, I can't do card tricks, but I can view the future, so of course I'm talking about something that's GOING to happen.

But do magicians practice? Not just the performance, but let's say manipulating cards? Or am I making the trick harder than it is?

Is there any physical skill involved?
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Yes. Close-up magic is hard and therefore quite impressive, and there's a tremendous amount of physical skill involved in getting the good stuff right.
 
It's just lots and lots of practice. Sometimes you have an advantage if you have bigger hands, but not really. It's just a desire to be good. Practice, practice, practice.
 
MoeFaux said:
It's just a desire to be good. Practice, practice, practice.
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A very good point, MoeFaux. That is it, exactly. There always needs to be the desire to succeed. I would say, "practice, perform, watch", as the three things one should do to be a above average magician.

A good magician must practice, but she also needs to perform, and she needs to watch other magicians perform.
 
WOW~! Magicians will never have a better or more appreciative audience than myself!

I remember reading in Mr.Randi's book about the woman who did coin magic, and had very small hands, but still managed to be one of the best.

I watched Andrew at TAM2 (I was doing my volunteer stuff at the sales table), and he was sort of messing around with a deck of cards while listening to the speakers. I wondered if he was messing around just to have something to do with his hands, or really just practicing.
 
kittynh said:
I remember reading in Mr.Randi's book about the woman who did coin magic, and had very small hands, but still managed to be one of the best.
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When I was a child, and just getting interested in magic, I remember reading some magic book where the author claimed that someone with fingers like mine, long and slender, could not do sleight-of-hand magic because the space in between my fingers would not allow me to keep anything hidden in my hands. I am glad I did not believe that dummy. I almost exclusively do sleight-of-hand magic. I love it.

kittynh said:
I watched Andrew at TAM2 (I was doing my volunteer stuff at the sales table), and he was sort of messing around with a deck of cards while listening to the speakers. I wondered if he was messing around just to have something to do with his hands, or really just practicing.
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Probably both. I do it everything I pick up a deck of cards, a ball, a coin, whatever. It becomes automatic.
 
I'll chime in belatedly.

There is, of course, always at least some physical skill required, even if it is only the skill required to deal out a few cards without dropping the deck. Sometimes the physical skill necessary is very great.

You can learn the skills by reading books, watching videos, having a magician friend teach you, etc., etc.

I myself know a great deal about the methods of magic (not as much as most of the pros on this forum, but a great deal nonetheless) while not having practiced enough to actually acquire most of the ability needed to perform.

But that is only the physical aspect of magic.

Another skill, and often more important, is (my terms may not be completely accurate, but I think you'll get the idea) psychological.

A magician who gauges the mood properly can choose an appropriate effect for the setting. A magician who can set the mood through manipulation of the environment, personal demeanor, etc., etc., etc., can seemingly perform miracles with effects that require virtually no physical skill at all.

A third skill, related to the second, and which you've heard very much about on this forum, is the ability to provide misdirection and to take appropriate advantage of misdirection whether you provided it or it fortuitously happened. Banachek is a master at finding naturally occurring misdirection and taking advantage of it. I believe that in the Alpha Project he relied heavily on this ability; i.e., he did not always know exactly the method or timing he would use to fool the scientists but trusted that the moment would arise.


Your teacher was a fool for suggesting that reading a book would allow you to become a magician.

I could as easily and mistakenly say that if you read Uta Hagen's book Respect for Acting you will be able to perform on Broadway. (btw, it is truly a superb book on acting; I recommend it).

As I said, I know a great deal about technical methods in magic, but I cannot perform most things. There are a few things I can perform, though, and perform well; they are the ones relying mainly on setting and opportunity. In addition, I have a few more technical effects I can do when I know that the environment will be such that the "heat" won't be on me. The most forceful reaction I have ever received to a trick was from a totally impromptu thing I did involving a matchbook and some quarters; I knew the audience (two people in their home) would be receptive, inattentive at the right spots, and gullible. One accused me of being in league with the devil. But don't ask me to do it for you should we ever meet because the setting won't be right. Though I would be happy to show you how.


Regarding Jamy fiddling with the deck of cards, I would guess that he was practicing without knowing it. The studious magicians I know practice all the time. When they watch television they have a deck of cards in their hands and repeat certain sleights over and over. I imagine that for someone like Jamy it is simply second nature to productively "fiddle" with a deck of cards when one is handy during idle time.
 
kittynh:

What has been posted is pretty accurate: the best magicians practice a LOT!

However, the biggest skill in performing a magic trick is in its presentation, and the best magicians can make a simple trick into a near miracle. There's a guy here in London who does a version of the "ball and vase" - which is a standard trick in children's magic sets - and fools knowledgable magicians with it!

There are some card tricks which require very little or nothing in the way of sleight of hand, and many are in the near-miracle class. Magicians call them "self-workers", but that's a bit of a misnomer - because YOU need to work them, and make them entertaining!

If you want to learn more, try "Self Working Card Magic" by Karl Fulves. There's a few tricks in there which are really good!
 
I knew someone at university who had been practising card tricks for years.

He could shuffle a deck of cards perfectly. He could have a deck of cards (and know the order of the cards) then shuffle the cards a couple of times and still know the order of all the cards. That makes pulling a "random" card out of the deck a lot less random and opens up loads of new card tricks to the magician.

Some of the most impressive card tricks are the ones where the magician pre-decides which card you are going to get and uses (sometimes) very advanced and complex techniques to make sure you get that card.
After that, what appears to be the most impressive part of the trick is actually the easiest.

The physical dexterity involved in lots of card tricks is simply beyond what most people would be capable of without years of practise.
 
According to Alain Choquette (possibly Quebec's best known magician), the one thing you need (aside from practicing a lot) to be a good magician is dexterity. Like in any other art, there is some natural talent involved.
 
ah ha!

So some natural talent too?

I really wasn't sure. To me, it seems I could practice and practice, and there are many tricks I'd never be able to do!
 
kittynh said:
ah ha!

So some natural talent too?

I really wasn't sure. To me, it seems I could practice and practice, and there are many tricks I'd never be able to do!
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You'd probably be surprised. Natural talent might help, but with enough practice you can do the mechanical parts tremendously well. Whether you'd be able to present it and get quite the same "Wow!" factor is the bit I'd argue is where natural talent comes in most handy - some people are better with people than others.
 
You know what I HATE?

When a "magician" (usually someone that does NOT do this for a living) does a cool trick and then SHOWS me how it was done.

I always say, "no no don't show me!"

It's like if I read a really good book and the author said to me, "oh, let me show you how to write it!"

I just want to enjoy! I get a real rush from the "wow!" factor.

Magicians must get all the chicks.;)
 
richardm said:
You'd probably be surprised. Natural talent might help, but with enough practice you can do the mechanical parts tremendously well. Whether you'd be able to present it and get quite the same "Wow!" factor is the bit I'd argue is where natural talent comes in most handy - some people are better with people than others.
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I don't know... How much practice do you think it would take to do that trick to make a signed dollar bill disappear and reappear inside a kiwi (or other fruit, well obviously not really inside, but as if it had been inside when you slice it open)? I'm sure some tricks, and some people, require more (or less) practice than others. I mean, even if I practiced piano every waking hour, I could never match Glen Gould, I imagine it's the same with magic. But if all you need is really just practice, then I might consider acquiring a copy of "Cards as weapons" (you never know, it might come in handy)...
 
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