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Kiss the Ground

Red Baron Farms

Philosopher
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
5,234
Location
Oklahoma
An interesting film short.



The full length film is out soon. Here is the trailer for the full film:



Much of what has been seen above has been discussed here before on multiple threads. But until now I hadn't seen it put together by anyone but me. So I would like to see peoples skeptical opinion on all this.

Cant wait till the full length film comes out.:D
 
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What does he do in thew inter time? Do the cows forage through the snow?

Every feed lot owner knows exactly how much feed it takes to make a steak. And from known crop yields, how many acres it takes per cow. It shouldn't be too hard to calculate the amount of feed your farmer gets per acre, then compare the two systems. Proving the Regenerate the Soil advantage should just be a matter of math. Does he really get more steak per acre than the feed lot does?

I'd like to see those real numbers compared to the enviro-whackos bazillion tons and an ocean of water per steak.
 
An interesting film short.



The full length film is out soon. Here is the trailer for the full film:



Much of what has been seen above has been discussed here before on multiple threads. But until now I hadn't seen it put together by anyone but me. So I would like to see peoples skeptical opinion on all this.

Cant wait till the full length film comes out.:D
It would be helpful if you mentioned what the film was about.
 
It would be helpful if you mentioned what the film was about.

A revolutionary group of activists, scientists, farmers, and politicians band together in a global movement of "Regenerative Agriculture" that could balance our climate, replenish our vast water supplies, and feed the world
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8618654/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

I think the keyword is could. They probably do not have the evidence that what they are doing is benefiting the planet.
 
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8618654/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

I think the keyword is could. They probably do not have the evidence that what they are doing is benefiting the planet.

Maybe not a coincidence that the same time the Industrial Revolution and AGW started, so did an Agriculture Revolution?

Water and soil run off improvements are a given. I'm not sure on fertilyzer use. Meat production should be compared with existing stats. So far as carbon sequestering into the soil: samples show that the excess CO2 in the air is from petro chemicals. If returning carbon to the natural soil that used to be there, then shouldn't the CO2 that used to be in the original soil be a major component of the aerial CO2?
 
Maybe not a coincidence that the same time the Industrial Revolution and AGW started, so did an Agriculture Revolution?

Water and soil run off improvements are a given. I'm not sure on fertilyzer use. Meat production should be compared with existing stats. So far as carbon sequestering into the soil: samples show that the excess CO2 in the air is from petro chemicals. If returning carbon to the natural soil that used to be there, then shouldn't the CO2 that used to be in the original soil be a major component of the aerial CO2?
It is a major component. However, not all the carbon that left the soil is actually CO2, the biggest loss of soil carbon is actually due to erosion rather than oxidation causing CO2. Stable soil carbon is actually in the form of stable humic polymers tightly bound to the mineral substrate. (sand silt clay) This carbon is pretty resistant to oxidation. It is a different thing than the O-Horizon carbon which is easily oxidized into CO2 almost entirely by the decay process. Our agricultural soils have however lost almost all the O-horizon carbon and are slowly loosing even the stable fraction due to tillage and excessive agrochemical use.
 
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Every feed lot owner knows exactly how much feed it takes to make a steak. And from known crop yields, how many acres it takes per cow. It shouldn't be too hard to calculate the amount of feed your farmer gets per acre, then compare the two systems. Proving the Regenerate the Soil advantage should just be a matter of math. Does he really get more steak per acre than the feed lot does?

I'd like to see those real numbers compared to the enviro-whackos bazillion tons and an ocean of water per steak.
Regenerative Ag is not just about cattle. Beef and dairy is just one small subset. The primary difference being most agricultural croplands no longer are used to raise those animals, as they have generally get removed and their impact replaced with agrochemicals. But as this was your question, I will take a stab at answering this subset of a subset.

Obviously this varies quite a lot depending on the quality of the feed and the breed of cattle, however, feed conversion ratios in the neighborhood of 6:1 (6 lbs of feed per pound of gain) are common in modern beef cattle feedlots. The blends are an amazingly complex issue as well. For simplicity's sake I will use the most common corn, soybean meal, alfalfa hay model. There are three stages starting with 60% corn, 40% alfalfa; 73% corn, 27% alfalfa; and finishing with 86% corn, 2% soy, 12% alfalfa. (these are general %'s that do not include additives like Dicalcium phosphate, Limestone, Potassium chloride, Urea, Salt and trace minerals) They also require about 10% roughage (usually low quality straw or hay) with minimal nutrient content, to prevent various digestive ailments, as the cattle's digestive system is not evolved to handle concentrated feeds.

It is further complicated by the fact almost all beef cattle are set stock grazed (called stockers) prior to entering the feedlot, often on land unfit for crop production for a variety of reasons. When the cattle start out thin and ragged, they’ll gain at a quicker rate on spring forage for stockers or feedlot concentrate for finishing. That’s because they’re eating better than they previously had. This is a perverse "incentive" for cattlemen to overgraze first before transferring to the next step in the feedlot system.

So lets break it down by life cycle stages. We start with a cow calf operation that uses 100% grazing until the steers and heifers get weaned at about 700-1000 pounds. Then they move to a stocker operation that usually also grazes but that could sometimes supplement with concentrated feeds. And then finally the cattle enter the feedlots for the final 90 days or so to "finish".

So then to properly analyze yields of beef per acre in the segmented feedlot system one must include the acreage for the cow/calf operation, the acreage for the stocker operation, and finally the acreage used to grow the concentrated feeds.

Basically 2 to 3 times the acreage, but done in 2 years what rotational grazers are doing in 3 years but on a little more than 1/3rd the acreage. Keep in mind though, Illinois and Iowa cornfields are on much more productive ground. The rare regenerative farmer who has switched has found that they also can grow far far more forage on restored grasslands in these former tallgrass prairie areas.

I am not exactly sure where the myth came from that grazed cattle require more acreage to raise than feedlot cattle. But it was never the case that industrial ag is land efficient. Just the opposite. Industrial ag is across the board land inefficient, sacrificing land use efficiency for labor efficiency (and time efficiency in animal husbandry).

And that's the very simplified analysis...
 
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Regenerative Ag is not just about cattle. Beef and dairy is just one small subset. The primary difference being most agricultural croplands no longer are used to raise those animals, as they have generally get removed and their impact replaced with agrochemicals. But as this was your question, I will take a stab at answering this subset of a subset.

Obviously this varies quite a lot depending on the quality of the feed and the breed of cattle, however, feed conversion ratios in the neighborhood of 6:1 (6 lbs of feed per pound of gain) are common in modern beef cattle feedlots. The blends are an amazingly complex issue as well. For simplicity's sake I will use the most common corn, soybean meal, alfalfa hay model. There are three stages starting with 60% corn, 40% alfalfa; 73% corn, 27% alfalfa; and finishing with 86% corn, 2% soy, 12% alfalfa. (these are general %'s that do not include additives like Dicalcium phosphate, Limestone, Potassium chloride, Urea, Salt and trace minerals) They also require about 10% roughage (usually low quality straw or hay) with minimal nutrient content, to prevent various digestive ailments, as the cattle's digestive system is not evolved to handle concentrated feeds.

It is further complicated by the fact almost all beef cattle are set stock grazed (called stockers) prior to entering the feedlot, often on land unfit for crop production for a variety of reasons. When the cattle start out thin and ragged, they’ll gain at a quicker rate on spring forage for stockers or feedlot concentrate for finishing. That’s because they’re eating better than they previously had. This is a perverse "incentive" for cattlemen to overgraze first before transferring to the next step in the feedlot system.

So lets break it down by life cycle stages. We start with a cow calf operation that uses 100% grazing until the steers and heifers get weaned at about 700-1000 pounds. Then they move to a stocker operation that usually also grazes but that could sometimes supplement with concentrated feeds. And then finally the cattle enter the feedlots for the final 90 days or so to "finish".

So then to properly analyze yields of beef per acre in the segmented feedlot system one must include the acreage for the cow/calf operation, the acreage for the stocker operation, and finally the acreage used to grow the concentrated feeds.

Basically 2 to 3 times the acreage, but done in 2 years what rotational grazers are doing in 3 years but on a little more than 1/3rd the acreage. Keep in mind though, Illinois and Iowa cornfields are on much more productive ground. The rare regenerative farmer who has switched has found that they also can grow far far more forage on restored grasslands in these former tallgrass prairie areas.

I am not exactly sure where the myth came from that grazed cattle require more acreage to raise than feedlot cattle. But it was never the case that industrial ag is land efficient. Just the opposite. Industrial ag is across the board land inefficient, sacrificing land use efficiency for labor efficiency (and time efficiency in animal husbandry).

And that's the very simplified analysis...

So overall half the acre/years? I would think Big Ag would be all over that system. Though wouldn't the best of both worlds use the regenerative method for cow/calf and finishing, include the stocker/grazing for economy? Any gains off of non-productive land is cheap.

In my mind grazing lands are way out west. Shades of cattle drives! Are there other swaths of grazing land? Surely all the calves can't come from Montana, there must be calf operations closer to the corn belt?

150 years ago, a mid-west farm was 160 acres. Divided in to 4 quarter-sections. What were the useage patterns? (wood lots were for heat as well as lumber. Loves that Black Walnut !)
 
So overall half the acre/years? I would think Big Ag would be all over that system.


Not if it's labor-intensive. Which by modern agricultural standards it is.

Same reason they're not interested in mixed-crop permaculture methods, regardless of the yield per acre.
 
Not if it's labor-intensive. Which by modern agricultural standards it is.

Same reason they're not interested in mixed-crop permaculture methods, regardless of the yield per acre.
You are absolutely correct, and of course so called "Big Ag" wouldn't be interested in teaching land efficient methods either. Therefor many farmers just never heard if it. But on the other hand, if you can show a farmer how to increase profits, they generally will if the infrastructure is there to support them....This is where so called "big Ag" has focused their attention....eliminating that infrastructure so alternate methods more profitable to the farmer, (but less profitable for them) have less chances of being adopted.
 
Pardon me for asking possibly dumb questions.

Is it possible to get a carbon-neutral steak? Has the calculation been done?

Do the anti-feedlot protestors know that cattle aren't in feedlots all their lives? (At least I think they're not.)
 
Pardon me for asking possibly dumb questions.

Is it possible to get a carbon-neutral steak? Has the calculation been done?

Do the anti-feedlot protestors know that cattle aren't in feedlots all their lives? (At least I think they're not.)
There are people selling carbon neutral and even carbon negative steaks, yes. I don't know of any feedlots that are doing it though. All the carbon negative steaks available currently are from grassfed and grass finished producers. And although the cost to raise these cattle is much less than the feedlots, it is selling for more than the feedlots due to high demand and low supply. It will be a great business opportunity for the future, especially where carbon markets are being installed or planned.
 
Now that we know that it takes 6,000lbs of food to grow a 1,000 cow, we can put several of the gas-house myths to bed. Like how much fuel it takes to transport the feed, how much fuel it takes to grow it ( any grain farm knows his cost/bushel, or we could use the price of corn as if the whole price was for diesel = larges possible amount if Co2) ). Plus, 6t of feed = precisely how much methane. I suspect all those numbers would also deflate the comparison of Red Baron's "Back to the Farm" initiative.

If diesel cost $2.50/gal, and it is half of the corn growers cost, then a cow costs 75 gallons of diesel. Or umm, 500lbs. If half the fuel and half the feed get turned into CO2, 3,250lbs of co2 to grow a cow. Guessing half the weight if the cow is used fir human consumption, 1/500 of that per one pound steak= 6.5 lbs CO2. Don't the enviro-whackos claim thousands of lbs CO2?
 
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My wife's childhood home is near this farm:

White Oak Pastures
https://www.whiteoakpastures.com/

They had a study done:

Carbon Footprint Evaluation of Regenerative Grazing at White Oak Pastures
https://blog.whiteoakpastures.com/hubfs/WOP-LCA-Quantis-2019.pdf

Until this catches on I will have to stay with conventional raised Angus Choice Boneless Ribeye from Walmart at $9.47 lb. White Oak's Grassfed Beef Ribeye Steak (Boneless) is $24 lb.

I'll settle for feedlot prime Tri-tip for $2/lb when it is on it's expiration day sale.
 
By-product value is about $100/cow. Or about 10% of the cow?

Everything but the mooo.
 
There are people selling carbon neutral and even carbon negative steaks, yes. I don't know of any feedlots that are doing it though. All the carbon negative steaks available currently are from grassfed and grass finished producers. And although the cost to raise these cattle is much less than the feedlots, it is selling for more than the feedlots due to high demand and low supply. It will be a great business opportunity for the future, especially where carbon markets are being installed or planned.

If all steaks are carbon-neutral, does that mean it is still going to allow enough people in the world to eat one every week?
 
If all steaks are carbon-neutral, does that mean it is still going to allow enough people in the world to eat one every week?
I am fairly certain that not everyone in the world even wants to eat steak. Several religions for example don't approve of either meat eating in general and/or specifically reject eating beef.

However, once all food is carbon negative, then anyone could eat whatever they want assuming they can afford it. There will not be a problem with lack of supply, unless artificially created in the many various ways world hunger is caused in today's world. If anything, food security would be significantly more robust, rather than more fragile, all else equal.
 
I am fairly certain that not everyone in the world even wants to eat steak. Several religions for example don't approve of either meat eating in general and/or specifically reject eating beef.

However, once all food is carbon negative, then anyone could eat whatever they want assuming they can afford it. There will not be a problem with lack of supply, unless artificially created in the many various ways world hunger is caused in today's world. If anything, food security would be significantly more robust, rather than more fragile, all else equal.

We need food security to be optimal, and fair for all.

I recently heard that the UN project 8.8 billion people in 2100, down from 10.8 billion projected a year ago.

I'm thinking at this rate we might be headed towards food equality and security, and plan to look into whether I should change my vegan diet.
 

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