Kid gets suspended after standing up to bully

[TragicMonkey]

There is something not quite right about all this.

We don't have any good information on what acutally happened here.

My question is this, It appears thatthe video was posted by a parent or friend of Casey's (I can't access the site right now). Yet the whole circumstance of the video indicates some sort of preplanning on someones part (the bully's or the victem's).

How did the person who posted the video get a hold of it? If it was indeed a friend of Casey's, then was it a freind of Casey's who took the video? If so, then there would appear to have been some sort of premeditated action to this. More info is needed.

Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that the bigger kid was the regular bully of the smaller one, and that video was footage of the first time the smaller kid tried to follow the advice of so many and finally stand up to him?

 

[JimD]

Just read through all this, and nobody's mentioned much about the video. The camera-person, and the friend of the bully who was shown trying carry on the fight at the end, had obviously set the thing up to humiliate the bigger kid, hence choosing the small kid to do the punching. I expect it would then have gone up on YouTube and around the school to extend the bullying even further. I doubt the youngster thought it through that far, but if he hadn't fought back so effectively they could have carried on making his life hell for years.

The drop could have hurt the bully badly, but they were both kids and can't be expected to have the forethought of adults. Having said that, this case www-dot-sheffieldforum-dot-co-dot-uk/showthread-dot-php?p=7393254 which was local to me, had someone die after a single punch. Forethought isn't always what it should be.
(apologies for the munged url, replace -dot- with dots to use it)

Jim

PS. Typical! while I'm fighting the system to include a url, and my own mind to use proper English, people start talking about the video!!!

 

[Monketi Ghost]

This to say on that.

When I was a kid, my mother didn't have time to fight my battles for me, and said so. She told me, after a beating at the hands of a bully, to hit him in the face as hard as I could.

I did, and floored him. He never messed with me again, and I got in trouble at school for it. It was Catholic school though, so I was made to say a penance of prayers while asking for the Lord's forgiveness and all was cool.

Bullying the bully solves the bully problem.

 

[Babbylonian]

I was the big, physically passive kid in school and I was beaten up by bullies many times over the years, presumably so that bullies could show they were tough by beating up the big kid. The one time I fought back went a little something like this: A kid punched me in the face just outside the locker room after gym class and my nose was hurt and bleeding (broken, I realized after I got home). I completely lost it, had no idea what I was doing, and was told later I slammed his head backwards 3 or 4 times into a cement stairway which he was unlucky to have behind him. Both of us were suspended on the theory that any fighting, even in self defense, was worthy of suspension.

It was wrong then and it's wrong today. Fight or flight in response to a physical threat is about instinct until or unless a person has been trained in violence. The idea that a 14-year-old kid (my age at the time) ought to be able to consider fully and rationally a proportionate response to a violent action is ridiculous, and as has been stated many times up-thread, in our modern society it seems like only the public school system holds that idea.

 

[tyr_13]

There is something not quite right about all this.

We don't have any good information on what acutally happened here.

My question is this, It appears thatthe video was posted by a parent or friend of Casey's (I can't access the site right now). Yet the whole circumstance of the video indicates some sort of preplanning on someones part (the bully's or the victem's).

How did the person who posted the video get a hold of it? If it was indeed a friend of Casey's, then was it a freind of Casey's who took the video? If so, then there would appear to have been some sort of premeditated action to this. More info is needed.

I agree that more information is needed. However, who ever posted the video tell us nothing about who took the video. Such video would be spread around the school within minutes no matter who took it.

 

[Bikewer]

Were I responding to this case in my capacity as a police officer, the "bully" lad would have been arrested (well, technically, "taken into custody" which is what you do with juveniles) and the other lad would have been listed as the victim.
His actions...Self defense.
IF the bully sustained injuries as a result of being thrown, too bad. Heat of the moment. The other lad did not press his advantage and continue to assault the kid, he prudently walked away.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Bullying the bully solves the bully problem.

Unless of course the bully decides to wait for you after school with a baseball bat to avenge his humiliation. One problem with uncivilized solutions to uncivilized problems is that all parties have to agree, in a civilized manner, that the matter has ended--a resolution that become more and more unlikely the longer the uncivilized exchanges occur.

 

[Rasmus]

My question is this, It appears thatthe video was posted by a parent or friend of Casey's (I can't access the site right now).

Why do you think this?

From the video itself, I had assumed that a friend of the bully was shooting the video. (From what I've read, it is not uncommon for people to film their bullying of others and then publish the films.)

I don't see why the person who originally posted the video wouldn't have still posted it - someone got beaten up on film, it's just as funny and cool regardless of who it is, right?

Yet the whole circumstance of the video indicates some sort of preplanning on someones part (the bully's or the victem's).

Indeed. Which is why I assumed - somewhat unfairly maybe - that it was a friend of the bully.

How did the person who posted the video get a hold of it? If it was indeed a friend of Casey's, then was it a freind of Casey's who took the video? If so, then there would appear to have been some sort of premeditated action to this. More info is needed.

More info is always needed. I think it should be understood that everything we can say here is based on what little we know. Of course or judgments might change if things turned out to be not what they appeared to be.

But be that as it may: How could the big kid possible have deserved the first punch in the face? If all he needed to do to "set up" this thing was go to school and stand where the bully could see him, and even if he had secretly learned how to defend himself - so what?

 

[IDB87]

It was wrong then and it's wrong today. Fight or flight in response to a physical threat is about instinct until or unless a person has been trained in violence. The idea that a 14-year-old kid (my age at the time) ought to be able to consider fully and rationally a proportionate response to a violent action is ridiculous, and as has been stated many times up-thread, in our modern society it seems like only the public school system holds that idea.

Right, but you had your nose broken and had been repeatedly beaten up in the past. The victim in this case was punched by a smaller kid in the side of the head/cheek bone (and very well may have never been attacked before). I don't think that's enough to drive him into a frenzy like you experienced, but we don't know the mental stability of the victim, or any other historical facts that would provide any sort of context.

 

[tyr_13]

Unless of course the bully decides to wait for you after school with a baseball bat to avenge his humiliation. One problem with uncivilized solutions to uncivilized problems is that all parties have to agree, in a civilized manner, that the matter has ended--a resolution that become more and more unlikely the longer the uncivilized exchanges occur.

And this is the problem with 'letting kids settle their own problems'. Sure, that's a good lesson for some things, but utterly and completely fails when it comes to bullying. Adults need to get involved, if for no other reason than to show that there is always a bigger fish.

 

[Babbylonian]

Right, but you had your nose broken and had been repeatedly beaten up in the past. The victim in this case was punched by a smaller kid in the side of the head/cheek bone (and very well may have never been attacked before). I don't think that's enough to drive him into a frenzy like you experienced, but we don't know the mental stability of the victim, or any other historical facts that would provide any sort of context.

All of that is irrelevant. The kid was attacked, he responded. His method of response was well in line with what I believe any jury in the world would find acceptable. Being suspended from school because of what is probably some ridiculous "zero tolerance policy" is unjust, full stop.

ETA: My "full stop" was premature; not only is it unjust but it sends exactly the wrong message to students - that self defense is out of line.

 

[IDB87]

All of that is irrelevant.

Not when you're trying to determine whether the possibility of seriously crippling a bully is justified based on the attack captured on video.

The kid was attacked, he responded. His method of response was well in line with what I believe any jury in the world would find acceptable. Being suspended from school because of what is probably some ridiculous "zero tolerance policy" is unjust, full stop.

Opinions aside, I agree with you about the suspension. It's always been that anyone involved in any sort of physical altercation is always suspended regardless of who started it.

Gives the victim a little vacation though, so I guess that's neat.

 

[Rasmus]

Right, but you had your nose broken and had been repeatedly beaten up in the past. The victim in this case was punched by a smaller kid in the side of the head/cheek bone (and very well may have never been attacked before). I don't think that's enough to drive him into a frenzy like you experienced, but we don't know the mental stability of the victim, or any other historical facts that would provide any sort of context.

Keep blaming the victim! Now he's mentally instable?Again, please tell us how much violence one needs to endure before fighting back becomes appropriate!

 

[TragicMonkey]

But be that as it may: How could the big kid possible have deserved the first punch in the face? If all he needed to do to "set up" this thing was go to school and stand where the bully could see him, and even if he had secretly learned how to defend himself - so what?

What happened the day before the video was shot? And the day before that? And the day before that? Nobody posting here knows those kids, or the relationship between them. Maybe the victim of this particular incident was the tormentor in prior indicidents.

The problem with any one piece of evidence is that its meaning doesn't extend beyond itself. A classical example would be G.K. Chesterton's "Pursuit of Mr Blue": you see two figures running in circles. One is the pursuer, one is the pursued. An observer cannot tell which is which unless he was present when the chase started.

Watching the video shows you what happened between these two kids during the time the video was being shot. What that actually means could vary.

More info is always needed. I think it should be understood that everything we can say here is based on what little we know. Of course or judgments might change if things turned out to be not what they appeared to be.

Precisely. That's the problem with judgments, is that unless you have enough evidence you might be making them the wrong way.

 

[Rasmus]

Gives the victim a little vacation though, so I guess that's neat.

That is just stupid now!

The attacker and the victim both received the same kind of punishment. If it is a reward, then the bully was also rewarded for his attacks, and the net effect remains the same: You're worse off for fighting back.

 

[IDB87]

Keep blaming the victim!

I've done no such thing.

And apparently mentally unstable kids who are bullied don't exist?

This is speculation.

 

[Rasmus]

What happened the day before the video was shot? And the day before that? And the day before that?

Nothing that would justify any claims of "self defense" on the day afterwards.

Nobody posting here knows those kids, or the relationship between them. Maybe the victim of this particular incident was the tormentor in prior indicidents.

Maybe. But then he tried to retaliate and that I think is wrong.

The problem with any one piece of evidence is that its meaning doesn't extend beyond itself. A classical example would be G.K. Chesterton's "Pursuit of Mr Blue": you see two figures running in circles. One is the pursuer, one is the pursued. An observer cannot tell which is which unless he was present when the chase started.

I cannot claim self defense for defending myself against something that you did last week.

Watching the video shows you what happened between these two kids during the time the video was being shot. What that actually means could vary.

Slightly, yes.

Precisely. That's the problem with judgments, is that unless you have enough evidence you might be making them the wrong way.

Since I am not in a jury I'll happily take that risk. Where's the problem?

 

[IDB87]

That is just stupid now!

The attacker and the victim both received the same kind of punishment. If it is a reward, then the bully was also rewarded for his attacks, and the net effect remains the same: You're worse off for fighting back.

Again, I heard the bully got 24 days suspension.

Pointless to talk about until we get the actual details - but I was in a fight (sort of self defense?) in highschool, got suspended, and enjoyed the days off.

 

[Rasmus]

Again, I heard the bully got 24 days suspension.

So your argument would now have him getting the much bigger reward?

 

[Nihilianth]

I also wonder at the complete lack of intervention before the slam. Kids were all about it until the idiot kid got smashed. I was a tiny guy that grew 10 inches my senior year in high school. Expecting the big kid to exercise more restraint than the little kid is silly. Someone should teach the little bully that his behavior is inappropriate. And someone did. It's not like he gave him a funny look. He repeatedly punched him in the face.

I also think it was kinda dumb for such a small kid to try to pick on someone twice his size. Although, I must say, at least he WAS picking on someone bigger than him. Better than someone smaller, that's for sure. lol.

In any case, I think it's alright he got slammed. As a teacher, I do not whatsoever condone such conduct. But sometimes, drastic situations call for drastic measures. Yes, they both should be punished, but definitely in different ways.

btw, I don't think what the big kid did to the little guy was all that "dangerous." I've done far worse when I was a kid. Heck, all of my friends and I have suffered worse, and more dangerous accidents than that. They're kids. They'll bounce back. The human body is pretty resilient.