• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Kerry on Minimum wage

merphie

Graduate Poster
Joined
Sep 11, 2004
Messages
1,890
One of Kerry's promise is to raise minimum wage.

It seems to me that if this were to happen

1. it would raise the over-head of businesses.
2. In return the businesses would raise their fees to compensate.
3. The cost of living would increase
4. Minimum wage would have no effect.
 
A higher paid workforce will perform better and theyll make more money and not have to raise costs.
 
Tmy said:
A higher paid workforce will perform better and theyll make more money and not have to raise costs.

really? Even places like Taco Bell?
 
Tmy said:
A higher paid workforce will perform better and theyll make more money and not have to raise costs.

Well then, we might as well have the minimum wage at $200 and hour. Since a higher paid workforce always works harder...
 
merphie said:
One of Kerry's promise is to raise minimum wage.

It seems to me that if this were to happen

1. it would raise the over-head of businesses.

Every business?
2. In return the businesses would raise their fees to compensate.

Or find some other way to absorbe the cost
3. The cost of living would increase

Doesn't follow unless you can show that it would increase the cost for every business and that there are no fixed overheads

4. Minimum wage would have no effect. [/B]

Nope because only one of the cost that businessess face would have increased.

Consider a business makes a product which sells for $200

Of that $100 of the cost is due to people on minium wage wages. Now lets see what happens if we increse the minium wage by 100%

The product now costs $300 that is to say the price has gone up by 50%. The person on the minium wage has seen thier income go up by 100%. So the cost of the product has not gone up as fast as the minium wage.

In fact the only situtation where it will is where 100% of the cost of the product is due to paying people on the minium wage. I don't think that happens very often.
 
Re: Re: Kerry on Minimum wage

geni said:
Every business?

Of course not every business. A lot of the smaller businesses. Fast food, service industry.

Or find some other way to absorbe the cost

Lay-offs?

Doesn't follow unless you can show that it would increase the cost for every business and that there are no fixed overheads

I'll do a google and see if I can dig up some information.

Nope because only one of the cost that businessess face would have increased.

A very large part.

Consider a business makes a product which sells for $200

Of that $100 of the cost is due to people on minium wage wages. Now lets see what happens if we increse the minium wage by 100%

The product now costs $300 that is to say the price has gone up by 50%. The person on the minium wage has seen thier income go up by 100%. So the cost of the product has not gone up as fast as the minium wage.

Huh? So their product they sold for $200 now cost $300 to make? So if they charge 100% over their cost then the new price of the product would be $600? The cost went up 200%.

What if the product is gas? Instead of paying our station clerk $41.20 a day we have to pay them $57.20. (This also increases the taxes the employer has to pay on the employee.)

So if one gallon of gas cost $1.90 Of which the station makes .05 per gallon sold. (The local gas station complained about drive offs.) This would mean the station would have to sell 320 more gallons of gas to compensate. That assumes there is one employee and contract labor.
 
Re: Re: Re: Kerry on Minimum wage

merphie said:
Of course not every business. A lot of the smaller businesses. Fast food, service industry.


So not an across the board increase in living costs. Your claims falls at the first hurdle

Lay-offs?

Only if the company has too many employies



A very large part.

Doesn't matter as long as it is below 100%

Huh? So their product they sold for $200 now cost $300 to make? So if they charge 100% over their cost then the new price of the product would be $600? The cost went up 200%.

The product didn't cost 200$ to make (unless you assume that they were selling it at cost which would be err dumd in most comercial areas)

Now we do a further breakdown:

When the product was being sold for $200 before the minium wage rise the cost breakdown was:

$100-minium wage staff

$50-other overheads

$50-profit

Now suspose we double the minuim wage. In order to make the same level of profit the company hhas to increase the sale price of the product to $300 with the following breakdown

$200-minium wage staff

$50-other overheads

$50-profit

You will note that the profit has stayed the same. The minium wage cost has doubled howvever the cost of the product has only increased by 50% so the minium wage has risen faster than the cost of the product.

What if the product is gas? Instead of paying our station clerk $41.20 a day we have to pay them $57.20. (This also increases the taxes the employer has to pay on the employee.)

So if one gallon of gas cost $1.90 Of which the station makes .05 per gallon sold. (The local gas station complained about drive offs.) This would mean the station would have to sell 320 more gallons of gas to compensate. That assumes there is one employee and contract labor.

I don't know how many gallons the satation sells at the moment but if I did I could extract the numbers and plug them into the equation I used above and assuming the station ins't getting the gass for free the % rise in the cost of petrol will be less than the percentage rise in the minium wage.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Kerry on Minimum wage

geni said:
So not an across the board increase in living costs. Your claims falls at the first hurdle

So an effect on one part of the economy doesn't affect anything else?

Only if the company has too many employies

Like if they can't afford to pay the ones the have?

Doesn't matter as long as it is below 100%

I would say labor is the major part of a company's cost.

Now we do a further breakdown:

When the product was being sold for $200 before the minium wage rise the cost breakdown was:

$100-minium wage staff

$50-other overheads

$50-profit

Now suspose we double the minuim wage. In order to make the same level of profit the company hhas to increase the sale price of the product to $300 with the following breakdown

$200-minium wage staff

$50-other overheads

$50-profit

You will note that the profit has stayed the same. The minium wage cost has doubled howvever the cost of the product has only increased by 50% so the minium wage has risen faster than the cost of the product.

You weren't clear. So now product X is more expensive by $100 which take the minimum wage earner 14 hours to pay for. What if they product is a raw material for another company to produce it's product?

I don't know how many gallons the satation sells at the moment but if I did I could extract the numbers and plug them into the equation I used above and assuming the station ins't getting the gass for free the % rise in the cost of petrol will be less than the percentage rise in the minium wage.

Economics are a difficult thing. From a search I could not find any definate answer. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

This article seems to share my initial view.

link
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kerry on Minimum wage

merphie said:
So an effect on one part of the economy doesn't affect anything else?

Not my claim.

Like if they can't afford to pay the ones the have?

If they can't up the price of their products then it means that someone else out there can make the product cheaper

I would say labor is the major part of a company's cost.

Still doesn't matter just as long as long as minium wage labour is less than 100% of the companois costs

You weren't clear. So now product X is more expensive by $100 which take the minimum wage earner 14 hours to pay for. What if they product is a raw material for another company to produce it's product?

What of it? the cost of that companies raw material will have increased by less than the cost of the minium wage increase. Remeber In this simulation the minium wage was increased by 100% far higher than you would expect.

Economics are a difficult thing. From a search I could not find any definate answer. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

This article seems to share my initial view.

link [/B]

Problem is that it deals with farmers that are so heaverly subsisdised that trying to figure out how something will effect them by the normal rules just isn't posible. The second part then goes on to dealing with the problem that the rise would only be state wide rather than nation wide.
 
Hmmm, minimum wage. Subverting agreements between employee and employer... causing layoffs to try to diminish losses... seems like a good idea for me. Yay freedom and DEMOCRACY?
 
I do not know if the minimum wage ought to go up, or ought to go down. Thankfully, I make a good deal more than the minimum wage so I don't know what it's like to live on it.

However, I am quite certain that a minimum wage is a very good idea. Here's why.

Is the work performed by an employee less valuable, more valuable, or the same value as his wages? If a company is making a profit, then the work performed by the employee is more valuable than the wages paid to the employee. The aggregate difference between the value of the work and the wages paid is equal to the profit of the company.

All companies must make a profit in our system, or they will go out of business. Therefore, with the exception of a few companies that are about to go under, the work performed by an employee is more valuable than what he is paid, and someone else is taking the excess.

Also, consider the value to society of the work performed by an employee. His products and/or services can be sold at a profit because they are valuable to society. I like the new beaf-bean combo burrito at Taco Bell, and I am willing to pay for it. The value to society is equal to what we are willing to pay, which then becomes the wage earner's wages, plus the company profits.

So, consider somebody working at a full time job, but whose wages are so little that he cannot live a decent, acceptable, life, at the minimum standard at which we are willing to accept for our fellow man. Then there are two possibilities. Either, the work he is doing is of so little value to society that it does not equal the minimum that one person consumes from society in order to live decently, or, that work is valuable, but someone else is taking away the profits, and leaving the wage-earner with less than enough to live decently.

What the minimum wage says is that you are not allowed to make a profit off of someone else's labor, unless you are willing to pay that person enough for him to live decently. If you pay him less than enough to live decently there are two possibilities. Either his work is valuable, but you are taking too much of that value for yourself, in which case the law says you must give him a higher share or, his work may not be valuable, in which case the law says you must release him to go seek more valuable employment, and you yourself must also find some other way to earn money, either with a better idea that makes better use of available labor, or by becoming a wage-earner yourself, employed by someone who will take some of the value of your labor.

And I used the phrase "decently" a lot above. What does that mean? It means enough money to live a lifestyle which does not evoke pity in your fellow man. Above all, which does not evoke so much pity that the average citizen feels compelled, through the government which represents him, to provide financial assistance to raise that worker's standard of living to the point that the average citizen considers it "decent". If that happens, i.e. if welfare of some form is given to workers at Taco Bell, we have in effect created a subsidy to Taco Bell.

So, is $5.15 per hour a "decent" wage. (Is that the minimum these days?) If not, it should go up.
 
Re: Re: Kerry on Minimum wage

geni said:
Consider a business makes a product which sells for $200

Of that $100 of the cost is due to people on minium wage wages. Now lets see what happens if we increse the minium wage by 100%

The product now costs $300 that is to say the price has gone up by 50%. The person on the minium wage has seen thier income go up by 100%. So the cost of the product has not gone up as fast as the minium wage.

Not that your point is completely invalid, but you have to consider how the minimum wage affects the overhead, too. Maybe the $100 overhead in your example (presumably for materials?) has gone up to $150 now, because the company that makes the materials has to pay its employees more, too.

Jeremy
 
Sushi said:
Hmmm, minimum wage. Subverting agreements between employee and employer... causing layoffs to try to diminish losses... seems like a good idea for me. Yay freedom and DEMOCRACY?

The minimum wage serves an important function, even apart from the desired economic effect. It means that employers have to pay their employees in real money, as opposed to company scrip, barter, or other forms of "payment" that can lead to exploitation.

Jeremy
 
Meadmaker said:
So, is $5.15 per hour a "decent" wage. (Is that the minimum these days?) If not, it should go up.

From a CNN.com article: 'The Census Bureau's definition of poverty varies by the size of the household. For instance, the threshold for a family of four was $18,810, while for two people it was $12,015.'

$5.15 * 40 hours * 52 weeks = $10,712 . The article doesn't state the poverty level for a one person household, but the numbers are pretty clear: minimum wage is not a living wage.
 
rhoadp said:
From a CNN.com article: 'The Census Bureau's definition of poverty varies by the size of the household. For instance, the threshold for a family of four was $18,810, while for two people it was $12,015.'

$5.15 * 40 hours * 52 weeks = $10,712 . The article doesn't state the poverty level for a one person household, but the numbers are pretty clear: minimum wage is not a living wage.

I'm not sure I follow. Two people working full-time, minimum wage jobs make over the poverty line for a family of four. While the numbers for a one person household aren't given, you can assume they are at least slightly less than the two-person, probably close to the minimum wage pay.

I wouldn't want to try living on that amount, of course...

Were those numbers from the Census Bureau based on gross or take-home pay?

Jeremy
 
Re: Re: Re: Kerry on Minimum wage

toddjh said:
Not that your point is completely invalid, but you have to consider how the minimum wage affects the overhead, too. Maybe the $100 overhead in your example (presumably for materials?) has gone up to $150 now, because the company that makes the materials has to pay its employees more, too.

Jeremy

My exapme has overheads of only $50 even assuming the worse case and that thses double (not going to happen though) that still only ocme out as a total increase of 75% of minium wage
 
merphie said:
really? Even places like Taco Bell?

Do you ever see a Taco Bell that ISNT hiring? Strange, the min wage keeps going up AND STILL they put applications on the placemats.

How can this be Proffessor Economics?
 
Tmy said:
Do you ever see a Taco Bell that ISNT hiring? Strange, the min wage keeps going up AND STILL they put applications on the placemats.

They are always hiring because turnover is so high, not because they are increasing the number of minimum-wage employees.
 
mortimer said:
They are always hiring because turnover is so high, not because they are increasing the number of minimum-wage employees.

Right. Cause T-Bell has it down pat on the # of employees needed at one time to get the job done. If you lowered the min-wage they wouldnt hire more people to just stand around. takes 5 people to do the job then they will use 5.

You you reverse the situation and lowered the min wage would it make turnover less??? Improve the T-Bell experience??
 
Meadmaker said:
I do not know if the minimum wage ought to go up, or ought to go down. Thankfully, I make a good deal more than the minimum wage so I don't know what it's like to live on it.

However, I am quite certain that a minimum wage is a very good idea. Here's why.

snip

Very well put. I don't know if it should or either. I make a great deal more now as well so the issue doesn't really effect me. It wasn't that long ago when I made minimum wage.

I did everything I could to get a better wage. I went to votech and have worked two jobs. I never settled for minimum wage.

I am just trying to understand the issue.
 

Back
Top Bottom