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Kerry lied, racist style

Yeah...

'What is the point?' seems a straightforward question for someone who is taking the facts (which are that the US census shows something on the order of 800,000 blacks in prison, and 2 million in college, and doesn't even take into account the age differences between prison populations and college, or that a recent government study shows only 13 out of the 50 states where blacks in prison outnumber those in college), and tries to focus on a false impression.


Bolstering that false impression with bogus statisics fabricated by dumping more people into the 'in prison' category NOT becuse they are in fact in prison, but solely based on their race, doesn't do anything to convince me of noble intentions either.

And the fact is that there is an all too willing audience out there for negative stereotypes about minorities, makes me wonder why more people on JREF aren't immediately and audibly skeptical of the sterotype of minorities as largely uneducated criminals.
 
I'd rather someone lie or be misinformed about this than about a country's armaments, and then going out and invading said country for no reason.
 
crimresearch said:
Yeah...

'What is the point?' seems a straightforward question for someone who is taking the facts (which are that the US census shows something on the order of 800,000 blacks in prison, and 2 million in college, and doesn't even take into account the age differences between prison populations and college, or that a recent government study shows only 13 out of the 50 states where blacks in prison outnumber those in college), and tries to focus on a false impression.


Bolstering that false impression with bogus statisics fabricated by dumping more people into the 'in prison' category NOT becuse they are in fact in prison, but solely based on their race, doesn't do anything to convince me of noble intentions either.

And the fact is that there is an all too willing audience out there for negative stereotypes about minorities, makes me wonder why more people on JREF aren't immediately and audibly skeptical of the sterotype of minorities as largely uneducated criminals.
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A very sound argument. I like it much better than the earlier accusation of holding stereotypes.
 
According to this source:
t is misleading to compare the number of African American men who are incarcerated with the simple number of college students. It is a simple fact that a man can go to prison at any age, but is far more likely to be in college between the ages of 18 and 24 than at any other time in his life. The more meaningful comparison here is to look at how many men of college age are enrolled in college or under custodial supervision. When the figures are broken down by age, a much different picture emerges . . . There were 469,000 African American males between the ages of 18 and 24 who were enrolled in college in 2000, compared to 180,000 in prison or jail. An African American male of college age is therefore over two and a half times as likely to be in college than in prison. That is a significant difference.
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Originally posted by crimresearch
Feel free to hold whatever stereotypical views of black people, and their tendency towards prison or education that you wish.
Your numbers are still flawed, and the concept as presented is still derogatory to minorities.
Too bad that you don't mention finding *that* appalling.
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Excuse me, I do like the implication that I am a racist. I have:
1) Explained what I believe is the source of Kerry's misstatement and why I do not consider it a lie.
2) Provided accurate numbers.
3) Made no claim as to the cause of the numbers.
4) Said that I find the fact that more blacks are under the control of the justice system than in college is appalling.

Please explain how I have stereotyped blacks or any other minorities. Please explain how anything I have said is derogatory to minorities.

]Originally posted by crimresearch
implying that I misquoted Kerry or called him a liar, when I did no such thing
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I have never claimed anyone misquoted Kerry.

I was trying to make a general comment about calling Kerry a liar when he made an mistake. Because my wording was poor, I see how it appeared to be directed to you. It was not. I apologize for the unintentional implication.

CBL
 
Ceo_esq,

You posted a link to an interesting article. According to it black women aged 18-24 are 83 times as likely to be in college than jail. Black men are 2 1/2 times as likely.

Clearly this high rate of incarceration is not due to being black. Nor is it do to being male. It is only the combination of being black and male. The questions are "Why?" and "What can be done about it?"

CBL
 
CBL4 said:
4) Said that I find the fact that more blacks are under the control of the justice system than in college is appalling.
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In 2000 there were roughly 3.5 million white males enrolled in college. The same year, I think that there were somewhere between 6 and 6.5 million people under the supervision of the justice system (on probation/parole or in prisons and jails). I don't know how many such people were white males, but I'll bet that it wasn't too far from 3.5 million.

Thus, it may well be that there are currently almost as many (if not more!) whites under the control of the justice system than in college. Would you also find that appalling in and of itself?
 
Originally posted by ceo_esq
In 2000 there were roughly 3.5 million white males enrolled in college. The same year, I think that there were somewhere between 6 and 6.5 million people under the supervision of the justice system (on probation/parole or in prisons and jails). I don't know how many such people were white males, but I'll bet that it wasn't too far from 3.5 million.

Thus, it may well be that there are currently almost as many (if not more!) whites under the control of the justice system than in college. Would you also find that appalling in and of itself?
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Originally posted by ceo_esq
I do not know where you got your figures but according to the US Census bureau there were 12.5 millions whites in college.
US Census on white school enrollment

And, yes, I would find it appalling if 1.5% (3 out 203 million) of whites were under the supervision of the justice system. Less appalling than 7.5% (2.4 out of 32 million) of blacks but still appalling. If it were up to me, half of them of all races would be released tomorrow.

CBL
 
"I was trying to make a general comment about calling Kerry a liar when he made an mistake. Because my wording was poor, I see how it appeared to be directed to you. It was not. I apologize for the unintentional implication."

That's one of the reasons that the internet is a terrible way to communicate. Thanks for helping to clear things up, and please accept my apologies for over-reacting.

I have a major problem with the large number of people who are clients of the CJ system, not just in the US, but elsewhere.
I have a large problem with the overrepresentation of minorities in the CJ system.

And I find a lot of evidence that the current situation is at least partially created by the desire of people to rely on politicians and their soundbites to keep them 'safe'.
So I'm prone to pick apart any and all generalizations as ranging from unhelpful to potentially harmful.


And that tack hasn't always gone over well with others...
I remember a couple of years ago meeting a young lady that I found quite interesting, and pursuing conversations with her whenever we chanced to meet.
I heard her tell some other folks that there was a correlation between education and criminality.
When I tried to explain to her that being educated didn't neccessarily make people more honest, just less likely to end up in jail (she meant incarceration rates, not criminality), she got all huffy (thinking I was saying that lack of education was not a good excuse, which I most emphatically was NOT), and I never saw her again.
:o
 
The statistic is meaningless because it only compares blacks IN COLLEGE to those who were ever in the prison system.

A more meaningful statistic would be "blacks in college or with a college degree" with "blacks in prison or who have been there in the past". I'm pretty sure the former vastly outnumber the latter.

Even comparing "blacks in prison now" with "blacks in college now" is highly misleading since that includes blacks of ALL AGES in prison vs. only youngsters who are in college (presumably there aren't too many adult students, relatively speaking).

More meaningful would be, "blacks in prison now between age 18 to 24" to "blacks in college now".
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:


Assuming they are guilty, then yes it is.
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Acceptable on an individual level, yes, but acceptable on a societal level? Slightly different usage of the word "acceptable". See Bill Cosby's recent comments.
 
And there are how many people in Jail in the US? 2,078,570

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

At midyear 2003 there were 4,834 black male prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States in prison or jail, compared to 1,778 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 681 white male inmates per 100,000 white males.

Cross-race charts...
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/cpracetab.htm

Year White Black Other
1997 3,429,000 2,149,900 113,600

Egads, according to these numbers, blacks, with about 15% of the population, are 40% of the prison "system" population.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0056.html

A bit of a disproportionate number.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2003034
A higher proportion of Blacks attend college than 20 years ago: in 2000, 31 percent of 18- to 24-year-old Blacks were enrolled in colleges and universities, up from 19 percent in 1980.
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So, one more side-trip, back to census data for blacks, 18-24
http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/phc-t08.html
Table 3. Black or African American Population, by Age and Sex for the United States: 2000

3,804,437 * .31 = 1,179,375

1,117,200 blacks, age 18~24 in college
2,149,900 blacks (total) in prison system

Need an 18~24 black total to be comparable... but then after about 15 minutes of groping for the exact thing from a government site, lost interest, etc.
 
Nasarius said:


Acceptable on an individual level, yes, but acceptable on a societal level? Slightly different usage of the word "acceptable". See Bill Cosby's recent comments.
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Yes, acceptable on a societal level. Putting 1 million guilty people in jail is never a bad thing.
 
"Yes, acceptable on a societal level. Putting 1 million guilty people in jail is never a bad thing."

Thank God we have a fool proof CJ system so that we can be sure they are all guilty.
:rolleyes:
 
crimresearch said:
"Yes, acceptable on a societal level. Putting 1 million guilty people in jail is never a bad thing."

Thank God we have a fool proof CJ system so that we can be sure they are all guilty.
:rolleyes:
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I said "assuming they are guilty". You probably missed that part.
 
It would require psychic powers worthy of the JREF prize to know whether they all are in fact guilty.
All we can know is that they were found guilty by the system, which really doesn't have a great track record on that sort of thing.

So your point is taken, but in this case, assuming that the CJ system has the right people locked up and is in fact good for society may be a bit of a reach.
 
crimresearch said:
It would require psychic powers worthy of the JREF prize to know whether they all are in fact guilty.
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I think occam's razor solves this dilemma. In general, police don't go around arresting innocent people and then making up crimes they did.

While you have to be a psyhic to find that special case, you can rest assured that your atypical prisoner is guilty.

You live near memphis, be grateful you live near a city where the majority of perpetrators are not caught and of the ones who are, only a fraction ever serve jail time.
 
Diezel said:


Ahhh, AUP! I've so missed the way you can completely miss the actual point of something and turn it into something you want to see! :D

Good to see you are still around when I decided to come back as a regular poster! :D
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I actually got the point of the statement that Kerry was making. NTW criticises the proportion stated, when the whole point that Kerry was making is that having about 1,000,000 black makes in prison is a terrible thing. What's worse, a slip in the figures, or that so many people are in prison?
 
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