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Kerry is a Flip Flopper

So in your view this makes Bush less of a hypocrite? Why? His original complaint against Clinton/Gore did not make that distinction.
Drawing the reserve down requires a specfic presidential finding of the form contained in the Energy Policy and Conservation Act. Delaying the replenishment of the reserve does not require the President to make that finding. Even if it did, conditions are sufficiently different now (there's a specific feared supply disruption) that a finding of the sort required by the EPCA is more reasonable.

In other news, the oil loaned out does indeed pay interest in the form of more oil.
 
Are you suggesting oil accrues interest?


No, but he is suggesting that if you stop putting money in your account and don't take any out, then at the end of the month you'll have the same as when you started whereas if you withdraw money, you'll have less than when you started and THAT is the difference between not adding to the reserves and drawing from the reserves.
 
Just to make you both feel better, I have gone back and reviewed the financial statements issued for the year 2005. No breakdown of operating expenses. I found this information here: http://ir.exxonmobil.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=115024&p=irol-irhome

If you can find any major breakdown of expenses, go for it.
Like this?

Code:
					2005
				(millions of dollars)

Revenues and other income
	   		   			   			   		

Sales and other operating revenue $ 	358,955 
Income from equity affiliates  	  	  7,583 	
Other income   		   	  	  4,142 	   	   		   	  	  	   	  	  	   	  	 

Total revenues and other income	$ 	370,680 


Costs and other deductions
	   		   			   			   		

Crude oil and product purchases	$ 	185,219 
Production and manufacturing expenses  	 26,819 
Selling, general and administrative   	 14,402 
Depreciation and depletion   	  	 10,253 
Exploration expenses, inc.dry holes         964 
Interest expense  		   	    496 
Excise taxes  	   	  		 30,742 
Other taxes and duties   		 41,554 
Income applicable to min and pref int       799 	
Total costs and other deductions$ 	311,248 

Income before income taxes	$ 	 59,432


Please excuse the excess spacing in that.
 
No, but he is suggesting that if you stop putting money in your account and don't take any out, then at the end of the month you'll have the same as when you started whereas if you withdraw money, you'll have less than when you started and THAT is the difference between not adding to the reserves and drawing from the reserves.
Nyarlathotep, stop trying to explain it to him. I'm trying to sucker him into giving me his bank info so I can empty his account.
 
You forgot to send the URL for your bank's online services, your logon ID, password, and your Social Security number. You can PM them if you're concerned about security.

And here I thought you were moving past the childish, idiotic game playing. Oh, well.

Nyarlathotep
No, but he is suggesting that if you stop putting money in your account and don't take any out, then at the end of the month you'll have the same as when you started whereas if you withdraw money, you'll have less than when you started and THAT is the difference between not adding to the reserves and drawing from the reserves.
Except that is dead wrong. Your money in the bank accrues interest so the amount will not be the same. Maybe Beeps should give me his password?

Manny
Drawing the reserve down requires a specfic presidential finding of the form contained in the Energy Policy and Conservation Act. Delaying the replenishment of the reserve does not require the President to make that finding. Even if it did, conditions are sufficiently different now (there's a specific feared supply disruption) that a finding of the sort required by the EPCA is more reasonable.

In other news, the oil loaned out does indeed pay interest in the form of more oil.
So...conditions are different now, so it's OK that Bush changed his mind. Got it.

Same with Kerry and the Iraq War.

Reasonable people change their opinions as conditions change. So the whole flip-flop thing was a red herring from the get go. Which, again, was my whole point with this thread.
 
Same with Kerry and the Iraq War.
What changed between Kerry voting for the funding and voting against it?


The thing is, Mark, You're wrong. You're wrong because you didn't do even the most basic research about what you were posting about, trusting instead to the biased, fact-hating thinkprogress.org. And now you're getting spanked for it.

It's been a long time since I got spanked like this, but my recollection is that the spanking didn't stop until I admitted I had done wrong.
 
What changed between Kerry voting for the funding and voting against it?


The thing is, Mark, You're wrong. You're wrong because you didn't do even the most basic research about what you were posting about, trusting instead to the biased, fact-hating thinkprogress.org. And now you're getting spanked for it.

It's been a long time since I got spanked like this, but my recollection is that the spanking didn't stop until I admitted I had done wrong.

Not one fact. Other than vague fantasies about spanking me...
 
Nyarlathotep

Except that is dead wrong. Your money in the bank accrues interest so the amount will not be the same. Maybe Beeps should give me his password?

Nonetheless, it will not be LESS than what you started with. Whereas if you were to make withdrawals it would.
 
Not one fact.
You hate facts, Mark. They repulse you. You avoid facts when given, you never provide them yourself. On a molecular level, you and facts have opposite charge. In a thread about oil facts, you are water.
 
Except that is dead wrong. Your money in the bank accrues interest so the amount will not be the same.

How do you know? My only bank accounts are checking, and earn no interest.

You've been schooled, Mark. You made a mistake, you didn't understand the issue, and Manny did. That happens, and you can learn from it. But now you're just making a fool of yourself. And there's not even any point to it. You really want to hold onto the idea that the flip-flopper label was unfair to Kerry? Go ahead - nothing Manny has said contradicts that. But what you've said about Bush and the oil reserve was wrong. Defending it at this point doesn't help prove your point about Kerry, it just makes you look irrational.
 
Nonetheless, it will not be LESS than what you started with. Whereas if you were to make withdrawals it would.

Fair enough. However, it still does not change the fact that Bush's original comment on no way allowed for that possibility. It was "bad policy" pure and simple. Now he has changed his mind. And again, I don't really have a problem with him changing his mind (I sort of agree with him, although I consider it a futile gesture)...just that so many here are willing to find an excuse for it so they can still call Kerry a flip-flopper. As I said, one set of standards will do nicely.

Ziggurat, I stand by the conclusion, but appreciate the civil tone. Thanks.

Edited to add:
Btw, you all are making the assumption that no oil is ever taken out of the reserve for any other reason. Is that the case? Then why does the amount of oil in the reserve fluctuate so much? Oil fairies? And if oil is taken out, then diverting the inflow certainly does make a difference.
 
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Edited to add:
Btw, you all are making the assumption that no oil is ever taken out of the reserve for any other reason. Is that the case? Then why does the amount of oil in the reserve fluctuate so much? Oil fairies? And if oil is taken out, then diverting the inflow certainly does make a difference.

Well, if I am understanding Manny and what I have read on the subject, some oil is lent out to various refineries and those refineries have to later pay back that oil plus a bit extra. I see this as no different than you putting you money in the bank and the bank then lending it out at interest. It is STILL different than "tapping the reserve" at which point the oil would be sold to refineries at a certain price.

The difference being that the government gets the cash but not necessarily oil (and, if I understand this correctly, it would be sold at below market value, so the cash would be insufficient to restock it) thus depleting the reserves in a more permanant way.
 
Well, if I am understanding Manny and what I have read on the subject, some oil is lent out to various refineries and those refineries have to later pay back that oil plus a bit extra. I see this as no different than you putting you money in the bank and the bank then lending it out at interest. It is STILL different than "tapping the reserve" at which point the oil would be sold to refineries at a certain price.
Mostly. But the President still has to make a specific finding about a supply shortage to make loans which have the effect of depleting the reserve (which finding the President did make in the aftermath of Katrina and Rita). He does not have to make a similar finding to renegotiate the payment terms.

Now, there's a different kind of loan program which the Energy Department can make without going to the President -- I forget whether the Secretary has to approve such loans or whether they can be done at a lower level. In those cases, the SPR loans oil to a specific locality to counter a short-term local supply shortage. One example was when some freighter dropped some pilings in a bay somewhere, closing it to marine traffic until things got cleaned up. The SPR loaned the local oil terminal crude because they couldn't receive crude coming in by tanker. The terminal, in turn, had to arrange for simultaneous or near-simultaneous delivery at another location (basically, send the incoming boats to another SPR location).

The difference being that the government gets the cash but not necessarily oil (and, if I understand this correctly, it would be sold at below market value, so the cash would be insufficient to restock it) thus depleting the reserves in a more permanant way.
Nah, the oil sales are at market. The whole "not less than 95%" thing is just to protect the poor Energy Department bureaucrats from ending up in front of Congress if they happen to make a bad trade in a volatile market. But yes, cash sales expose the SPR to price risk (both up and down) whereas in the case of loans the risk lies with the recipients -- the Energy Department made a good bet last year.

DavidJames said:

Ah, "one of those inarticulate moments." That would certainly make sense, at least in isolation. But if it were in isolation the flip-flop charge would never have stuck. This is a guy who voted against the first war, for the second, said he'd never vote to restrict funding for a war he'd voted for, voted for funding, voted against funding, said that even with the knowledge of no WMD that he'd have voted for the war authorization, said that with the knowledge of no WMD he would not have voted for the war.

The contrast between all that mess and believing that there did not exist sufficient supply disruption to justify a Presidential finding to draw down the SPR in 1999 and believing that there does exist a supply disruption now but not a sufficient one to justify the Presidential finding is just too huge for a sane, honest person to make a comparison.



One error from earlier: I said the SPR was only statutorially authorized to 700 mm bbls. In fact, the '05 energy bill authorized the President to take it clear to 1 B bbls as soon as the capacity exists. Theoretically, he could top it off to 727 mm bbls while the capacity increase is ongoing. So while there are certain practical arguments against doing that, there is not a statutory reason not to.

One additional possible error: I may have invented the term "statutorially" from whole cloth.
 
Ah, "one of those inarticulate moments." That would certainly make sense, at least in isolation. But if it were in isolation the flip-flop charge would never have stuck. This is a guy who voted against the first war, for the second, said he'd never vote to restrict funding for a war he'd voted for, voted for funding, voted against funding, said that even with the knowledge of no WMD that he'd have voted for the war authorization, said that with the knowledge of no WMD he would not have voted for the war.
You asked for what changed, I pointed it out, it's actually quite clear and concise.

It's a shame you have to then ramble on about other stuff, rather then admit it.
 

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