Kern County Clerk to Stop Performing Marriages

I can see a problem here. If there are 6 people performing marriages and 5 of them refuse to do a certain type then the 6th one must do the lot, which means he specializes in doing that type of marriage. He may not do many of other sorts.
 
I can see a problem here. If there are 6 people performing marriages and 5 of them refuse to do a certain type then the 6th one must do the lot, which means he specializes in doing that type of marriage. He may not do many of other sorts.

That depends entirely on the numbers. If that type of marriage only occurs in 8% of the cases (which is about the estimate of the number of gay people in general), then that 6th person will still officiate only in 50% of the cases a gay marriage and in 50% of the cases a hetero marriage.

Moreover, what's really different about it that it requires "specializing"? I haven't been to a gay marriage in Holland, but I can't envisage it being any different than a hetero marriage. The official makes a nice speech about both partners, how they met, how they fit together, and then they sign the marriage contract.

And finally, those 5 that refuse to do a gay marriage will retire, and will then be replaced by new officials who are not allowed to refuse that.
 
Couples have a right to marry, and they have a right to be treated equally under the law when they are married. There is no right enumerated anywhere to be married by any specific officer regardless of what that officer thinks. If an officer for whatever reason is uncomfortable with performing a few percent of ceremonies and has to ask another to do it, then I don't see that as necessarily a problem.

And if all of the officers happen to have personal feelings against such marriages, none will occur. If 2% of them are willing, it means 98% are not, and are being paid to refuse to do their job. You shift the burden to the public, who must find officials willing to do their duty--include the necessity for bribing the officials and you're back in the Third World.

What if a cop decided not to do his duty in certain situations? What if a soldier decided not to? A doctor? Dereliction of duty is unethical. If you won't do the work you shouldn't have the job.

We have a similar problem in some places in the US, where pharmacists are making personal belief choices to refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control. The public suffers because of the personal whims of someone who picks and chooses which parts of their duty they wish to fulfill.

A right that exists on paper, but cannot be enforced, is not a right at all.
 
And if all of the officers happen to have personal feelings against such marriages, none will occur.
That's not true. Every city hall must carry them out. If all the officers there refuse to (which is a preposterously unlikely occurance) someone would have to be brought in to do it for them.

If 2% of them are willing, it means 98% are not, and are being paid to refuse to do their job.
The percentages are far more likely to be the other way around. And just because someone doesn't marry a gay couple doesn't mean they are not doing their job; most of the time there are other couples to marry.

You shift the burden to the public, who must find officials willing to do their duty
Who are not in short supply.

What if a cop decided not to do his duty in certain situations? What if a soldier decided not to? A doctor?
A crook doesn't have a right to choose which cop is going to arrest him. An enemy doesn't have a right to choose which soldier is going to shoot him. And when you are brought in a hospital for an emergency, you have at most limited choice of which doctor is going to treat you.

We have a similar problem in some places in the US, where pharmacists are making personal belief choices to refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control.
If this pharmacist does not want to fill prescriptions for birth control and therefore asks another pharmacist working in the same pharmacy to do it for him, I don't think there is a serious problem.

A right that exists on paper, but cannot be enforced, is not a right at all.
In this case it is a right to marry, which is enforced. No one is refused marriage. All that happens is the tasks the officials have to carry out are scheduled with their religious sensibilities in mind.
 
And if all of the officers happen to have personal feelings against such marriages, none will occur. If 2% of them are willing, it means 98% are not, and are being paid to refuse to do their job. You shift the burden to the public, who must find officials willing to do their duty--include the necessity for bribing the officials and you're back in the Third World.
No, the persons who want to get married go to town hall. Town hall has to provide an official to perform the ceremony. If they don't, the community council hasn't done its job and the persons involved can go to court to enforce it.

I don't know about the specifics in the US - please inform us - but in Holland this has worked out and there hasn't been such a case. There was one case where a gay couple tried to go to court to enforce that one specific official married them - someone whom they knew to be against gay marriages. I think that's over the top. You don't want to be married by an official who does not have his/her heart in the matter anyway, as was also mentioned in the OP's article.

What if a cop decided not to do his duty in certain situations? What if a soldier decided not to? A doctor? Dereliction of duty is unethical. If you won't do the work you shouldn't have the job.
We're speaking here of a change in the job description. I think you should be pragmatic about such situations. In the beginning 80s, Holland still had draft, and began to be active in UN peacekeeping operations. Draftees got the choice whether they wanted to do that or not.

We have a similar problem in some places in the US, where pharmacists are making personal belief choices to refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control. The public suffers because of the personal whims of someone who picks and chooses which parts of their duty they wish to fulfill.
And some GPs don't want to perform euthanasia. Attitudes change over time. Thirty years ago, the first Dutch abortion clinic was shut down by the then Minister of Justice. Now, the government subsidizes an abortion boat which visits places like Ireland and Poland :D.

A right that exists on paper, but cannot be enforced, is not a right at all.
The right to gay marriage in the way Earthborn and I described the Dutch situation very well can be enforced - haven't heard of any problems with it except for the above anecdote.
 
Good riddance. I don't think the government should be in the marriage ceremony business anyway.
Really, the church does not marry people only the state and/or government does. Marriage is a legal contract between two people and marriage should be allowed between any two people that are of age and not already married, a parent, an aunt or uncle, a legal parent or a sibling, period.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
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A crook doesn't have a right to choose which cop is going to arrest him. An enemy doesn't have a right to choose which soldier is going to shoot him. And when you are brought in a hospital for an emergency, you have at most limited choice of which doctor is going to treat you.

But the cop can't decide not to pursue a criminal because he doesn't like the victim's race. The soldier can't decide not to fire on the enemy because they are the same religion. The doctor can't decide not to treat the patient because he doesn't like the patient's lifestyle.

If this pharmacist does not want to fill prescriptions for birth control and therefore asks another pharmacist working in the same pharmacy to do it for him, I don't think there is a serious problem.

And if the pharmacist doesn't ask another pharmacist to do it? Because that's collaborating in the sin? And confiscates the prescription without filling it, and doesn't return it? That is a serious problem.

In this case it is a right to marry, which is enforced. No one is refused marriage. All that happens is the tasks the officials have to carry out are scheduled with their religious sensibilities in mind.

You are letting people justify dereliction of duty because of their personal whims. "Oh, I don't like fat people, so you have to go stand in the other line at the DMV." "Sorry, I don't investigate black-on-black crime." "I can't fire on that submarine, those people are Greek Orthodox, same as me." "A Catholic marrying a Jew? Not on my watch!"

If you can't do the job, you shouldn't have it. Period. What sort of crazy country do you live in where you pay people regardless of whether they're willing to do the work?
 
The right to gay marriage in the way Earthborn and I described the Dutch situation very well can be enforced - haven't heard of any problems with it except for the above anecdote.

It's very strange to hear people argue that there's no need for principles because things seem to be working out okay...so far as you know...at the moment.

Law is like programming. You code for all possible situations, not just the ones you think you might have at the time. You don't decide "well, that's not very likely" or "I just can't imagine that happening!"
 
If it isn't against any law, it is legal, that is why government laws have so many pages, if it isn't covered "IT IS LEGAL".

Paul

:) :) :)
 
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But the cop can't decide not to pursue a criminal because he doesn't like the victim's race. The soldier can't decide not to fire on the enemy because they are the same religion. The doctor can't decide not to treat the patient because he doesn't like the patient's lifestyle.
A police department, military unit or hospital can however take individual qualities, weaknesses and sensibilities into account when assigning tasks. And that's all we are talking about here.

And if the pharmacist doesn't ask another pharmacist to do it? Because that's collaborating in the sin? And confiscates the prescription without filling it, and doesn't return it? That is a serious problem.
That would be a serious problem, and therefore it is illegal. Just as it is illegal for someone working in city hall to prevent couples from getting married who are otherwise legal to marry.

You are letting people justify dereliction of duty because of their personal whims.
To a very limited degree, and only if it can be guaranteed that no one's rights are violated, or even has to notice it.

Period. What sort of crazy country do you live in where you pay people regardless of whether they're willing to do the work?
Just because they don't marry gay couples doesn't mean they don't work while a gay marriage is happening. More likely they're marrying a straight couple or doing some paperwork. And that happens in the sort of crazy country that values equal rights as much as religious freedom, and isn't afraid to implement solutions that make everybody happy.
 
It's very strange to hear people argue that there's no need for principles because things seem to be working out okay...so far as you know...at the moment.

Law is like programming. You code for all possible situations, not just the ones you think you might have at the time. You don't decide "well, that's not very likely" or "I just can't imagine that happening!"

The programming analogy is an apt one. Say, you make a new version of your program which uses a new kind of file format, you still have to build in provisions for reading the old file format - the files in the old format don't disappear overnight.

Likewise, laws have transitory regulations - what to do with the analomies that get into being because of a change in the law.

As to the "at the moment": it was already explained three times that each community must provide an officer to officiate whatever marriage. And that communities may not appoint new officers with objections to gay marriages. So I don't see where in the future a problem may arise.

My bet is that there sooner will be no more officers in Holland who refuse to officiate gay marriages than that there will be no more Word95 documents current.
 
A police department, military unit or hospital can however take individual qualities, weaknesses and sensibilities into account when assigning tasks. And that's all we are talking about here.

We're not talking about "Amy has carpal tunnel and can't type too much" here, we're talking about "Mary hates the gays and won't dirty herself marrying them". People who refuse to do their job because of personal whims should not have that job. Especially if the job is government. The point is to serve the public. All of the public, not the bits of the public you happen to like.

To a very limited degree, and only if it can be guaranteed that no one's rights are violated, or even has to notice it.

What a sloppy way to run things. You're devoting extra effort to working around flaws and hoping they won't be seen instead of just fixing them. It's sweeping dust under the sofa on the gamble that nobody's going to need to move that sofa.

Just because they don't marry gay couples doesn't mean they don't work while a gay marriage is happening. More likely they're marrying a straight couple or doing some paperwork.

I'm a teacher, but I refuse to teach black students. Just give me the white ones, and let somebody else take the rest. Does that sound like a good compromise?

And that happens in the sort of crazy country that values equal rights as much as religious freedom, and isn't afraid to implement solutions that make everybody happy.

Indeed? "Equal rights" means "we'll let you get married, but we will in no way interfere if the person whose job it is to marry you refuses because she hates you and all your kind. We wouldn't want to upset her sensibilities." That makes everybody happy? Ignoring principle? Tolerating dereliction of duty? Encouraging government employees to do what they feel like and let others pick up the slack --if they feel like it?
 
It's very strange to hear people argue that there's no need for principles because things seem to be working out okay...so far as you know...at the moment.
Maybe it sounds strange to people who aren't Dutch, but if you live in a country where every political decision is necessarily a compromise between people with vastly different principles, that purposefully codifies hypocracy into law and calls it "policies of tolerance", then it really doesn't sound that strange at all. It is working out okay... so far as we know while keeping a close eye on it... at the moment.

Law is like programming. You code for all possible situations, not just the ones you think you might have at the time. You don't decide "well, that's not very likely" or "I just can't imagine that happening!"
You don't code for meteors dropping on your computer, and you don't code for the Y100K problem. Likewise there is no reason to make laws that can stand every preposterous eventuality that might happen in some nebulous hypothetical future. You make laws in an attempt to solve the problems of today, of the conceiveable future and when in the future the unintented consequences become too great, you change them.
 
The programming analogy is an apt one. Say, you make a new version of your program which uses a new kind of file format, you still have to build in provisions for reading the old file format - the files in the old format don't disappear overnight.

More like updating a web address. The old one is no longer valid, and will not work. It's the new one or nothing.

As to the "at the moment": it was already explained three times that each community must provide an officer to officiate whatever marriage. And that communities may not appoint new officers with objections to gay marriages. So I don't see where in the future a problem may arise.

Except in the present if all the current officers refuse to marry gays. I guess the gays can just wait til someone changes jobs?

My bet is that there sooner will be no more officers in Holland who refuse to officiate gay marriages than that there will be no more Word95 documents current.

If you just enforced things, you wouldn't have to bet on it.
 
Maybe it sounds strange to people who aren't Dutch, but if you live in a country where every political decision is necessarily a compromise between people with vastly different principles, that purposefully codifies hypocracy into law and calls it "policies of tolerance", then it really doesn't sound that strange at all. It is working out okay... so far as we know while keeping a close eye on it... at the moment.

It seems a terribly tentative sort of way to run things. It's much more secure to get things on paper.

You don't code for meteors dropping on your computer, and you don't code for the Y100K problem. Likewise there is no reason to make laws that can stand every preposterous eventuality that might happen in some nebulous hypothetical future. You make laws in an attempt to solve the problems of today, of the conceiveable future and when in the future the unintented consequences become too great, you change them.

But why leave in obvious flaws from the start? If you can see the problem now, why not fix it before it gets serious?
 
You are letting people justify dereliction of duty because of their personal whims. "Oh, I don't like fat people, so you have to go stand in the other line at the DMV." "Sorry, I don't investigate black-on-black crime." "I can't fire on that submarine, those people are Greek Orthodox, same as me." "A Catholic marrying a Jew? Not on my watch!"
I'll mention again: transitory measure. The law has changed, the duty has changed. A much more apt example is: soldier at Abu Ghraib says: "I don't want to torture, it's against my conscience". Torture wasn't on the duties of a soldier when he enlisted. Now it is - apparently. Should that soldier be fired? The fact that we both may think "gay marriage good" and "torture bad" (well, I hope so) is immaterial to the answer; the fact that the duties have changed in the meantime is.

If you can't do the job, you shouldn't have it. Period. What sort of crazy country do you live in where you pay people regardless of whether they're willing to do the work?
Pay doesn't come into it. In Holland, marriage officials are civil servants working in all parts of town hall who do marriages as only a part of their job because they like doing it. People who get married want the day to be great. Should you throw away the experience of these officials when a pragmatic solution is available?
 
I'll mention again: transitory measure. The law has changed, the duty has changed. A much more apt example is: soldier at Abu Ghraib says: "I don't want to torture, it's against my conscience". Torture wasn't on the duties of a soldier when he enlisted. Now it is - apparently. Should that soldier be fired? The fact that we both may think "gay marriage good" and "torture bad" (well, I hope so) is immaterial to the answer; the fact that the duties have changed in the meantime is.

Actually, yes, that soldier should be fired. In that situation the ethical thing to do is to refuse, but accept the consequences which in this case would be losing the job. You can't compromise and choose your conscience AND be shielded from the fallout. It's have the cake or eat it, not both. A job is to do the work. If you don't want to do the work, give up the job. That someone allows you to keep the job and not do the work, well, that's slackness, inefficiency, and corruption. I'd fire the supervisor for allowing that.

Should you throw away the experience of these officials when a pragmatic solution is available?

Sometimes you have to choose between pragmatism and principles.
 
Except in the present if all the current officers refuse to marry gays.
So has that happened? No, it hasn't. Was it ever likely to happen? No, it wasn't.

Civil servants are roughly representative of all Dutch people. If all of them would have been against gay marriage, there wouldn't have been enough support for legalising it, and it wouldn't have been legalised. The fact that it was legalised means that it was supported enough that your hypothetical couldn't have happened anyway.

Hypotheticals that start with "if everyone did that..." are never very good arguments. "If everyone was gay humanity would go extinct!" is not a good argument against allowing a few percent of humanity to be gay.
It seems a terribly tentative sort of way to run things.
It's the Dutch way. It is pragmatic. It works.

It's much more secure to get things on paper.
Let's hear how that works out for you in the USofA...

But why leave in obvious flaws from the start? If you can see the problem now, why not fix it before it gets serious?
I see no obvious flaws from the start. I don't see a problem now.
 
More like updating a web address. The old one is no longer valid, and will not work. It's the new one or nothing.
Then you're not doing your job as web developer. You should take care the old address still works - e.g., redirects to the new address. People bookmark your pages.

Except in the present if all the current officers refuse to marry gays. I guess the gays can just wait til someone changes jobs?
I don't think my brother and his friend, living in Amsterdam, would have any problem getting married if they'd want to. I'm afraid gays living in StaphorstWP will have bigger day-to-day problems than getting married.

If you just enforced things, you wouldn't have to bet on it.
It is enforced; not on the individual officer level, but on the level that a community must have an officer who officiates a gay marriage.

We're not talking about "Amy has carpal tunnel and can't type too much" here, we're talking about "Mary hates the gays and won't dirty herself marrying them". People who refuse to do their job because of personal whims should not have that job. Especially if the job is government. The point is to serve the public. All of the public, not the bits of the public you happen to like.

"Mary doesn't want to marry gays" does not imply "Mary hates gays". There are many shades of grey in between. In fact, the current political soap is the debate within the Christen UnieWP party - the smallest coalition partner - about gays running for office. They have gay members - also gay members who want to be active for the party. The official party line is against gay marriage; but in the party report on their policy towards gay members, they haven't categorically said that gays can't run for office for their party, and haven't even said that married gays can't run for office. Neither have they said gays can run for office irrespective.

So you see, ideas shift. It costs time though. You can't just change people overnight. And if you can find a solution that as much keeps peace, do it. Let things run their course - pressure from inside, as here the gays inside this Christian party, is much more effective than outside pressure.
 
We're not talking about "Amy has carpal tunnel and can't type too much" here, we're talking about "Mary hates the gays and won't dirty herself marrying them".
I know it is hard to fathom, but -- in a country where fundamentalist religious organisations and gay rights organisations often organise conferences and committees together to respectfully discuss eachother's ideas and needs and do often find mutual agreements and respect, even consensus -- someone who is against gay marriage does not necessarily "hate the gays".

I'm a teacher, but I refuse to teach black students. Just give me the white ones, and let somebody else take the rest. Does that sound like a good compromise?
No, because classes are mixed and forming mono-racial class specifically for your purpose requires discrimination in assigning students to classes.

Ignoring principle?
No, the opposite of ignoring it: harmonising principles that would otherwise conflict.
 

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