Kansas Evolution Fight Escalates...

[Bronze Dog]

Ah, I see, now: Where's God's toolbox?

[Appeal_to_ridicule] Everyone knows he used the 9th level cleric spell "Genesis". Was a bugger to get the necessary XP to cast it. [/Appeal_to_ridicule]

 

[ardee]

Welcome to the forum, and yes, that's one of the other good points: ID doesn't make predictions. Science does.

BTW, thanks for the welcome!

Yesterday, before I was allowed to post, I really wanted to post a reply to Beth's quote that fundamentalists are "really thick" where she lives. But I guess a pun wouldn't have been my best intro...

 

[Bronze Dog]

But I guess a pun wouldn't have been my best intro...

You'll want to go to the humor forum, and specifically the Top Ten List Challenge for that sort of stuff.

 

[ardee]

Ah, I see, now: Where's God's toolbox?

But remember, the ID folks say it does NOT have to be God (because if it did have to be God, they would be constitutionally disallowed from teaching ID).

So the point remains: if it isn't God -- a magical being that always existed and that has infinite powers (a concept that, in and of itself, leads to logical contradictions) -- then whoever it was had to have a mechanism for translating the design into physical reality, AND had to either exist forever or be designed and created (recursively) by something that did.

So it must be "God" which means it must be unconstitutional to teach.

-ardee.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

The intelligent designer(s) are not necessarily the creator(s). The attributes of the designer are taken by analogy from human designers, and human designers cannot create things out of nothing.

Therefore the analogy does not necessarily imply that the designer is the Christian God.

~~ Paul

 

[ardee]

The intelligent designer(s) are not necessarily the creator(s). The attributes of the designer are taken by analogy from human designers, and human designers cannot create things out of nothing.

Therefore the analogy does not necessarily imply that the designer is the Christian God.

~~ Paul

Ah, I hadn't heard the concept that the designers and the creators could be different beings / mechanisms. Interesting point.

But the designers would somehow have to at least influence the creators, right? There still must be a mechanism by which these particular designs (and not others or, heaven forbid, evolutionary mechanisms) are implemented in matter and energy.

Is this distinction between the designers and the creators real, if the creators must follow the designers' designs?

-ardee.

 

[Beth]

Absolutely. I'm fighting like hell to avoid doing what my father and mother did, but it's hard. It's really really hard, and I almost had the opportunity to have the government intervene, but my dad pressured me to lie to the social worker.

In my case, it would have definitely helped about twenty years of my life had the government intervened. There is some truth to the bit "it takes a village" - we just have a larger village with its hands thoroughly tied.

There are certainly times when it is appropriate for the government to intervene in families. Whatever your situation was, please accept my sympathies that things didn't work out well for you in childhood. At some point people become adults and have to accept responsibility for changing their patterns of behavior, seeking out the knowledge they need to make their lives better. Clearly you have accepted that responsibility and are actively trying to change. You are to be congratulated for making the effort. You are right, it isn't easy.

The question becomes at what point it is reasonable/acceptable for the government to intervene? My opinion, obviously not shared by the majority here, is that not teaching children about evolution or teaching them an incorrect version of evolution does not require governmental intervention to correct the situation.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I think the Flying Spagetti Monster created the universe, and then a team of invisible pink hamsters took over on the design.

The creator could be the designer, but it doesn't follow from the analogy. It's hard to do metaphysics and science when all you've got is an analogy.

~~ Paul

 

[bagtaggar]

You're all miserably wrong. I think it's quite clear that the Universe and everything in it was created last Tuesday. All of our memories, experiences, etc have been implanted into our minds. This is all a big illusion.

Behold, God:

 

[Beth]

Awesome dinosaur! I think my son has that shirt. He must be blessed by God

 

[drkitten]

The question becomes at what point it is reasonable/acceptable for the government to intervene? My opinion, obviously not shared by the majority here, is that not teaching children about evolution or teaching them an incorrect version of evolution does not require governmental intervention to correct the situation.

Well, I find it very difficult to find any circumstance when the government is not permitted to intervene in its own activities.

Remember we're talking here about public school curricula -- any parent who object too strenuously to the public school can always educate privately. What you're really asking the government to do is to lie to all students at the behest of a few.

And I'm quite serious about the word "lie." Knowingly teaching students an incorrect version of anything is by definition a willful misrepresentation of the truth, whether we're talking about the teaching of evolution, of history, or of the proper way to add seven and four.

I can't think of a legitimate reason to ask the government to lie. And I certainly can't think of a morally justificable reason for the government to accede to such a request.

 

[Beth]

Well, I find it very difficult to find any circumstance when the government is not permitted to intervene in its own activities.

Remember we're talking here about public school curricula -- any parent who object too strenuously to the public school can always educate privately. What you're really asking the government to do is to lie to all students at the behest of a few.

Er, no, the topic has drifted a bit. i was discussing what the parents were teaching their children. I don't think the government should interfere with a parent's right to direct their childs education - within reasonable bounds and I feel teaching about the theory of evolution falls within those bounds. I have NEVER advocated that the government should lie to any students for any reason. Quite the opposite. What I've said was that I don't think the government should insist on teaching children subjects over their parents objections. The two goals are NOT mutually exclusive, though admittedly difficult to manage in our current educational system.

I can't think of a legitimate reason to ask the government to lie. And I certainly can't think of a morally justificable reason for the government to accede to such a request.

We are strongly in agreement here!

 

[PatKelley]

There are certainly times when it is appropriate for the government to intervene in families. Whatever your situation was, please accept my sympathies that things didn't work out well for you in childhood. At some point people become adults and have to accept responsibility for changing their patterns of behavior, seeking out the knowledge they need to make their lives better. Clearly you have accepted that responsibility and are actively trying to change. You are to be congratulated for making the effort. You are right, it isn't easy.

The question becomes at what point it is reasonable/acceptable for the government to intervene? My opinion, obviously not shared by the majority here, is that not teaching children about evolution or teaching them an incorrect version of evolution does not require governmental intervention to correct the situation.

It's a problem of conflict. Why should schools avoid the conflict? The parents do as they will with their childrens' religious education, as they would do whether or not the school taught evolution.

The point is that evolution does not address religion; it is religion that has brought the fight. The schools are not dictating what children will or will not believe, just to what standards they are taught. This teaching includes biology, which cannot be divorced from evolution. It would be equivalent to teaching chemistry without atomic theory.

Truthfully, it is because government's hands are so tied that the social worker was forced to take my word, and the government already is incredibly reluctant to intervene except after the fact.

The Goliath in this picture is not so purposeful or weapon laden as has been proposed, and the David not so powerless.

 

[SezMe]

But you wanted my opinion - and, in my opinion, if you're willing to argue for a given point of view, then you think that point of view is, in some way, right.

Zaa, you admitted you're in a grumpy mood so maybe I should just let this go but I'm feeling argumentative so....

When the ACLU stands up for the Nazi's to have a parade in a Jewish neighborhood, do you conclude they support the Nazi's policies? I would hope not, especially when they go out of their way to state that they believe the Nazi perspective is abhorrant.

Or consider that they have defended free speech for folks at the very far ends of the political spectrum, AT BOTH ENDS. Now, they can hardly support conflicting policies.

No, they advocate for individual rights under the Bill of Rights. And they recognize that those rights accrue especially to those whose "speech" we find disgusting. I think this concept can be generalized (yes, with caution) to other advocacy organizations.

 

[petre]

Zaa, you admitted you're in a grumpy mood so maybe I should just let this go but I'm feeling argumentative so....

When the ACLU stands up for the Nazi's to have a parade in a Jewish neighborhood, do you conclude they support the Nazi's policies? I would hope not, especially when they go out of their way to state that they believe the Nazi perspective is abhorrant.

Or consider that they have defended free speech for folks at the very far ends of the political spectrum, AT BOTH ENDS. Now, they can hardly support conflicting policies.

No, they advocate for individual rights under the Bill of Rights. And they recognize that those rights accrue especially to those whose "speech" we find disgusting. I think this concept can be generalized (yes, with caution) to other advocacy organizations.

Such a notion has been around a long time:

I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -- Voltaire

Just as there are some that defend a woman's right to choose abortion, though they may disagree with that choice.

 

[Z]

Ok... I am now on Vicoden and Entex. I have a feeling my mood has changed.

For one thing, I feel warmish and fuzzylike.

For another, I think that poster with the rose and dragon was a total [Rule8] up there.

*sigh*

Beth, please do not accept any apology from me, as I don't deserve such acceptance. You were right - defend someone's rights, whether their choices are right or wrong.

Can I get a hug from someone?

 

[Beth]

Ok... I am now on Vicoden and Entex. I have a feeling my mood has changed.

For one thing, I feel warmish and fuzzylike.

For another, I think that poster with the rose and dragon was a total [Rule8] up there.

*sigh*

Beth, please do not accept any apology from me, as I don't deserve such acceptance. You were right - defend someone's rights, whether their choices are right or wrong.

Can I get a hug from someone?

Okay. You're forgiven. Hugs. I'll take you off my ignore list.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I'd rather have a broken collar bone and cracked ribs due to a seatbelt, suffer severe facial bruising due to an air bag and be bedridden for a couple of months than be thrown out the window of a vehicle at high speed and end up considerably worse off.

Oh, sorry, I missed this.

My point about seatbelts was by way of a parable.

You pointed out that fighting creationists brings them publicity, which is bad. My point, which I admit I could have expressed more clearly, is that this is bad like whiplash injury caused by a seatbelt is bad. If no-one fought creationists, then children up and down the land would be learning about how God created the world in six days in science class --- which corresponds to being flung through the windscreen.

 

[Ducky]

So yeah. Check it out:

Commence the banging of heads on keyboards.

 

[thaiboxerken]

All hail the theocracy of Kansas!!! Bow down to your true god, the christian god!!