Just One Case

[fls]

According to my dictionary, "intuition" means "the direct knowing or learning of something without the conscious use of reasoning; immediate apprehension or understanding." So why are you more intuitive than most others?

For the same reason that I am taller than most other women.

Linda

 

[fls]

That's a very speculative scenario. Don't you think police would have investigated whether she had ever been in the barn or been told by someone about the barn?

Even if they did bother investigating that, how could they possibly rule it out? It's not like someone was tracking her every movement over the previous five years.

Further, how did she know that the dogs would pick up on the scent trail?

I don't know that she did know that.

So if the case is solved and it is conclusively shown that Lauren had been in the barn you would change your mind about Morrison?

I already gave you the answer to that in this post. I would change my mind that she had been helpful, but not that it was due to psychic means.

Linda

 

[Rodney]

More to the point, if they had no reason to think Morrison had given them any useful information they would have no reason to investigate how she came by it.

If Morrison provided no useful information to the authorities, why would she have been "shepherded around the township in a van with shaded windows, then transported to the barn by the Army National Guard"?

 

[Rodney]

Oo. Oo. Too easy. Better brain?

So a better brain is responsible for intuition? Can you cite any studies that conclude that?

 

[Rodney]

I would change my mind that she had been helpful, but not that it was due to psychic means.
Linda

So what would it take to convince you that a psychic had assisted in a police investigation?

 

[deverett]

Reading this thread and thinking about it, it seems clear to me that no single case could be strong evidence.

Since a psychic could get lucky, what is needed is a constant track record of assistance that was helpful and documented to be before the fact.

It's my opinion that a single case is no better than someone catching a ball 1 time out of 5.

 

[deverett]

Reading this thread and thinking about it, it seems clear to me that no single case could be strong evidence.

Since a psychic could get lucky, what is needed is a constant track record of assistance that was helpful and documented to be before the fact.

It's my opinion that a single case is no better than someone catching a ball 1 time out of 5.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Reading this thread and thinking about it, it seems clear to me that no single case could be strong evidence.

Since a psychic could get lucky, what is needed is a constant track record of assistance that was helpful and documented to be before the fact.

It's my opinion that a single case is no better than someone catching a ball 1 time out of 5.

No argument with you there, deverett (welcome, by the way!). It's just that there doesn't seem to be even one case that holds up to scrutiny. And several psychics put out that they have helped on "hundreds of cases". So you'd think there'd be some solid information out there, from reputable people, willing to describe precisely how it helps. And, of course, staff psychics at police departments, psychic power being taught and/or developed in forensic departments/classes, etc. I was just looking for an initial one that would actually check out. Obviously, that wouldn't prove anything except a need to find more cases & trends.

 

[chillzero]

According to the article:

<snip>

So evidently police did not find Lauren's hair or a piece of her clothing, but, if the above sequence of events has been accurately reported, it would seem extremely unlikely that Morrison just happened to get a number of key details right and then the search dogs just happened to pick up some other scent trail that led them to the barn.

So, no evidence at all that any of this information was correct and pertinent to the case, then? She was able to identify that a barn existed, and that some numbers were in the area.

Again, the point is that a psychic (or non-psychic) can provide the police with valuable information, but the case may remain unsolved.

The point is that you cannot evaluate this information without a conclusion. You cannot know if the information was valuable, if the case remains unsolved because it cannot be proven if the barn had anything to do with the case or not. If a killer was caught with the child's body, and he mentioned he hid her there for a time - that's a whole other matter.

In fact, if the information was so valuable, how come the case is still unresolved?

This is like saying that Sylvia Browne provided valuable information about the murderer of Shawn Holbeck, because maybe there was a hispanic man with dreadlocks, etc, seen in the area. This information (a) did not help the police and (b) was proven completely wrong when the case was finally resolved.

 

[Garrette]

If Morrison provided no useful information to the authorities, why would she have been "shepherded around the township in a van with shaded windows, then transported to the barn by the Army National Guard"?

I have already stated my doubt about this portion of it. The only thing suggesting this occurred is the article which does not cite the case files and provides no references. I have been a member of the National Guard and am still a member of the Reserves. While it is not inconceivable that the NG would do this, their involvement in any kind of civilian criminal investigation would require exceptional circumstances and approval of the Governor.

Alternately, it is not unheard of for good-old-boy networks being used to pull off this type of stunt. "Hey, Bob! Would you give a friend of mine a joyride during this month's drill? You can put it down as convoy training."


Now, Rodney, would you answer my questions/comments from my last lengthy post? You have a very bad habit of ignoring questions asked of you (except those that do not address the core of the argument) and continually asking questions of others.

I answer yours. Please answer mine. Start with this one:

On what end of the spectrum [heavily researched to commercial piece] does this article lie?

 

[Garrette]

So a better brain is responsible for intuition? Can you cite any studies that conclude that?

Now, now, Rodney. Let's not engage in that other fave tactice of yours: Running the discussion to irrelevant tangents when your argument starts to crumble.

 

[Garrette]

So what would it take to convince you that a psychic had assisted in a police investigation?

Still a tangent. One can reasonably discuss whether X is proof (or strong evidence) without having to define what X must be to constitute proof (or strong evidence).

But you are leaving out the main point of fls' response, and I contend you do it intentionally: A psychic may provide assistance to the police without having provided psychic assistance.

If I were a plumber who assisted the police it would not be evidence that plumbing skills are helpful in police investigations.

 

[Cuddles]

For the same reason that I am taller than most other women.

High heels?

The point is that if the case is unsolved, there's no reason to assume the information was correct.

And here is the point that so many people, including Rodney, seem unable to understand. I was unfortunate to see part of one of these "psychic detective" shows (can't remember which one). Every little thing that the psychics said was touted as being new valuble evidence that the police had not found, but at no point was it mentioned that it was all simply stuff spouted by the psychic and had not actually been confirmed by anyone. In fact, the police were not even involved, it was just private detectives and there was never any mention of them actually presenting anything to the police. Although the whole thing kept claiming to be finding shocking new evidence to help the police solve cases, it was never anything more than someone claiming to be psychic coming out with some very vague and unverified "facts".

 

[Rodney]

On what end of the spectrum [heavily researched to commercial piece] does this article lie?

Difficult to say without getting the records, which I'm attempting to do. However, I haven't yet heard back from East Vincent Township.

 

[Garrette]

Difficult to say without getting the records, which I'm attempting to do. However, I haven't yet heard back from East Vincent Township.

Thank you.

There is an interim step you could take, particularly since you have already begun to do so. Contact the author and ask her about her research as opposed to her conclusion. Does she still have her notes? Did she see the case files? If so, does she have a copy?

That sort of thing.

It wouldn't be primary source material, but closer than the article itself. And it would at least move us along in determining how seriously to take the article itself.

 

[fls]

So what would it take to convince you that a psychic had assisted in a police investigation?

Going for "convince me" is setting the bar too high. I think, for the purposes of this exercise, you should try for "that at the very least it is 'unlikely' that natural means could account for the events", as I stated earlier.

Several plausible explanations, that do not invoke the supernatural, have already been offered for the events. For example, it is hardly unlikely that an individual would be less than truthful in order to garner attention.

Linda

(Yeah, it's a bump. Wanna make somethin' of it?)

 

[Rodney]

Going for "convince me" is setting the bar too high. I think, for the purposes of this exercise, you should try for "that at the very least it is 'unlikely' that natural means could account for the events", as I stated earlier.

Several plausible explanations, that do not invoke the supernatural, have already been offered for the events. For example, it is hardly unlikely that an individual would be less than truthful in order to garner attention.

Linda

Okay, so how about Nancy Weber? Specifically, see post #22 in this thread regarding Detective Ross English's letter about how Nancy Weber provided key information to law enforcement personnel that led to the solving of two cases. (By the way, you will note that, in the very next post, Garrette states that Mr. English "does not appear in my internet searches", but, in post # 64 concedes that in a telephone conversation with English, he "was adamant that Ms. Weber is psychic and that she did help him, via psychic means, to solve cases.") What's your explanation for the two cases referenced in post #22?

 

[Cuddles]

Okay, so how about Nancy Weber? Specifically, see post #22 in this thread regarding Detective Ross English's letter about how Nancy Weber provided key information to law enforcement personnel that led to the solving of two cases. (By the way, you will note that, in the very next post, Garrette states that Mr. English "does not appear in my internet searches", but, in post # 64 concedes that in a telephone conversation with English, he "was adamant that Ms. Weber is psychic and that she did help him, via psychic means, to solve cases.") What's your explanation for the two cases referenced in post #22?

What do you mean "our explanation"? Where is your evidence that this was psychic? Millions of people give information to the police, some of it is helpful. Unless you have some evidence that this information was obtained by psychic means these cases are completely useless as evidence for psychics.

In addition, the first case is useless anyway

"The victim was found floating in the local lake and the cause of death was drowning and an injury to the head. Nancy was able to describe the suspected crime scene and basically what took place and the physical features of our suspect. That information was locked in my desk for almost a year in a file at the police station. I followed up on the information received and reinterviewed the suspect and was able to get a confession."

So, if the above account is accurate, that's two cases in which a psychic provided key information to law enforcement personnel that led to the solving of the case.

Key information? She described the victim and the crime scene. These had already been found. She provided nothing whatsoever of use, and nothing that had not already been known.

 

[Rodney]

What do you mean "our explanation"? Where is your evidence that this was psychic? Millions of people give information to the police, some of it is helpful. Unless you have some evidence that this information was obtained by psychic means these cases are completely useless as evidence for psychics.

In addition, the first case is useless anyway
Key information? She described the victim and the crime scene. These had already been found. She provided nothing whatsoever of use, and nothing that had not already been known.

So why did Detective English state: "I had reached a dead end on a rape murder case . . . I followed up on the information received and reinterviewed the suspect and was able to get a confession."? And your explanation for the second case is . . .?

 

[Garrette]

So why did Detective English state: "I had reached a dead end on a rape murder case . . . I followed up on the information received and reinterviewed the suspect and was able to get a confession."? And your explanation for the second case is . . .?

1. Weber helped psychically

2. Weber did not help psychically but English says so because:

• He is lying
• He was misled
• He is misremembering

That's nothing beyond what has already been said many times, Rodney. You need to disprove #2 more than we need to prove them before #1 is accepted as either definite or even likely.


I have sent in the required forms to the Mt. Olive Police Department requesting case files for this case (the rape-murder) and the burglary case also mentioned. No response yet. Frankly, I have little optimism because I cannot provide many specifics and the MOPD is not bound to go through every single case for me to determine which ones I mean.

And since Mr. English refuses to tell me any identifiers on the case and Weber has not responded to my e-mail, I'm not sure what else I can do. I may write the Mt. Olive paper and ask if someone can search the archives, but that won't be for a while at least.

Don't you find it at least a little interesting, Rodney, that no one who claims Weber actually helped through psychic means is willing to provide the information which would allow that claim to be verified?