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Julian Assange: rapist or not?

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No.
You can not determine the truth if the trial and the judge are subjected to pressure from (for example) the Swedish and the American Government

Except you have no evidence that they would be.

I already did several times, I ll do again

The US soldiers who commit crimes in Iraq and were exposed by the leaks were not punished

This is what is called a non-sequitur. What the United States does or does not do in any particular instance has nothing to do with Swedish intentions with Assange. Without further evidence, the connection is only in your imagination.
 
Except you have no evidence that they would be.

This is what is called a non-sequitur. What the United States does or does not do in any particular instance has nothing to do with Swedish intentions with Assange. Without further evidence, the connection is only in your imagination.

You say this as you trust very naively the legal system of both Sweden and the US.
You are saying that "has nothing to do".
How do you know that it has nothing to do?
Why do you trust Governments so naively?

Do you really it is all abut a broken condom?
http://www.lawyersweekly.com.au/wig-chamber/news/‘does-anyone-seriously-think-this-is-about-a-broke

Once again here is the evidence:
if the Swedish Government were really after the truth and against crimes, why they did not produce a formal complain when her ally the US had some of their soldiers commit atrocities?
Why they did not severe their military alliance or at least issue a strong complain when no WMDs were found in Iraq?
If they did not, it means that they are not after justice and truth and it is all politics, therefore the suspect that they are after Assange, who has commit way minor crimes in comparison, for the leaks and not for the rapes, stands.

If you really believe wwhat your Governments tell you no matter what, then I have a bridge in Sahara desert to sell you.
Good price.
 
If Governments were really after the truth it is clear that they would prosecute all the crimes shown in the leaks, not just the person who helped the leaks come out
This is a "tu quoque" argument. I get this kind of whine from my kids all the time when they're about to be punished. "Well, my sister did it and got away with it." It doesn't work for them, either.

You're confusing what ideally ought to be with what is. Ideally, every wrongdoing would be investigated and every wrongdoer punished. I don't think you'll find anyone to argue against how that is what ought to happen.

In the real world, not every wrongdoer is brought to justice. This is sad, but the real world will get further away from the ideal if we start saying: "Well, that guy didn't get brought to justice, so we shouldn't allow this guy to be brought to justice." Because now, not only does that guy get away with it, but so does this guy, and a third, other guy, can say, "Well, they didn't get brought to justice, so why should I? And indeed, if we follow this logic why should he? Why should anyone face justice as long as anyone at all does not?
Mind you, that no one should face justice as long as anyone else doesn't isn't my argument, or any reasonable person's argument, because we don't follow that logic. We say it is a tu quoque fallacy, see that it leads us away from from our desired ideal of everyone facing justice, and reject it.


But let's ignore for the moment the incredible disconnect between any crimes revealed by the leaks and Assange's alleged behavior with women.

Could you be a little more specific? What crimes revealed in the leaks should Sweden be prosecuting, before it can legitimately, in your view, prosecute Assange as well?

One of the embarrassing things revealed in the leaks was that "the corruption among Ecuadorian National Police officers is widespread and well-known." Should Sweden have to attempt prosecution of these corrupt officers before prosecuting Assange? I don't see any way for them to do that. The alleged crimes were out of their jurisdiction. Sweden can't be reasonably expected to prosecute things that happened half a world away in Ecuador, or in Iraq or Afghanistan, for that matter.

Note I'm not arguing that Ecuadorian police should be prosecuted by Sweden. I'm merely pointing out the idiocy of the position that any alleged crimes exposed by Wikileaks must be prosecuted before Assange can be legitimately prosecuted.

But it's not at all unreasonable for Sweden to prosecute alleged crimes against its citizens by foreign visitors. I think they would be dishonest if they didn't, regardless of who the foreign visitors are.
 
Ah, the Assange thread trundles on...

Some new info - Assange has made a 'subject access request' to GCHQ in Cheltenham and they have responded by giving him the details of messages sent between GCHQ employees:

"We can confirm that GCHQ responded formally to the subject who made the request. The disclosed material includes personal comments between some members of staff and do not reflect GCHQ's policies or views in any way.
This is one of the messages that Assange claims came from that released material:

A message from September 2012, read out by Assange, apparently says: "They are trying to arrest him on suspicion of XYZ … It is definitely a fit-up… Their timings are too convenient right after Cablegate."
Article here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/may/20/julian-assange-gchq-messages-extradition

Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for moderated thread.
If true, a bit embarrassing for GCHQ and the British government I suppose; but not exactly a thunderbolt.
 
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And the system is controlled by the Swesdish Government which is the one suspected to go after Assange because of the leaks.

In post 4850 you agreed that this hypothetical issue could be disregarded. Why are you changing your position (again?). What new evidence has come to light since Friday?
 
So you are claiming that we should believe the New Statesman as they support women rights?
Ridiculous
The sentence was " it's not right-wing just because it supports womens rights".
What do women rights have to do with Assange?

And you call the New Statesman right-wing? A fundamental womans' right is integrity of her own body. Something your precious Assange appears not to believe in.
 
The Australian lawyer I have quoted is skeptic that "it is all about a broken condom".
Assuming that he is not stupid, he already knows what you are stating above.
On which grounds do you think he does not understand nothing about "how the EAW works"?

My whole line has been that it is harder to extradite Assange from Sweden once he's there, because of how an EAW works, than from the UK.

I pointed out that all lawyers who understand how this works agree.

And you posted an article that had nothing to do with it...hardly my fault you don't understand what you're reading.
 
If Governments were really after the truth it is clear that they would prosecute all the crimes shown in the leaks, not just the person who helped the leaks come out
But now I was talking about the subject of this thread - the truth about JA and the women.

So again, in your view - who should be trusted to find out the truth about those allegations, and how?

And the system is controlled by the Swesdish Government which is the after Assange because of the leaks.

This seems to be a "it's turtles all the way down"-type of argument.

From how I read it, the argument is dependent on a couple of conclusions you seem to have made:

1. JA is not guilty
2. Swedish is prosecuting JA for political reasons
3. Everybody in Swedish government services are in on this

Now, if this is not your position, maybe you could tell us who in your view are in on it, or at least has to be in on it for this conspiracy to work out.
 
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Watanabe, I still don't see you comment on why the USA didn't just extradite him direct from the UK while they had the chance?
Why go to all the trouble the extradition to Sweden first?
 
Once again here is the evidence:
if the Swedish Government were really after the truth and against crimes, why they did not produce a formal complain when her ally the US had some of their soldiers commit atrocities?
Why they did not severe their military alliance or at least issue a strong complain when no WMDs were found in Iraq?

It is a little difficult to sever a military alliance you never entered into in the first place. Sweden has been militarily neutral since the Napoleonic wars.
 
If Governments were really after the truth it is clear that they would prosecute all the crimes shown in the leaks, not just the person who helped the leaks come out

Except that the crimes are only in your own head.

Sweden is an ally of the US and if they wanted they could have protested for the crimes.

The was no crime.

Completely relevant

No, the non-prosecution for a non-crime by soldiers from a country other than Sweden has zero to do with Sweden wanting to prosecute Assange for allegedly committing a crime in Sweden. If you can't understand this basic fact then we are going nowhere fast.

Completely irrelevant.
Sweden is an ally of the US
Sweden could have protested

Protested about what? The US not prosecuting soldiers for not committing a crime?

There is the moral requirement

So all countries should now stop their courts from doing anything because some other country hasn't prosecuted someone else? That's what you are saying.

Ridiculous.
They did as shooting to civilians is a crime

No it's not ridiculous, it's the law. Shooting civilians during a military engagement is not always a crime no matter how much you want it to be. It is a crime to deliberately shoot civilians who you have identified as civilians. That is not what occurred in this case.

The law on this is pretty simple. ALL armed forces must be in uniform, must have visible insignia, and must not operate in a way to deliberately endanger civilians. The militants broke the law by dressing like civilians and operating in civilian areas, thus putting them in danger. They are the ones that put the civilians in the line of fire, they are the ones that are responsible. It's that simple.

In this case the militants were dropped off by a van that was similar to the one that arrived shortly after the firing and attempted to evacuate the militants. The helicopter crew had no way of determining civilian from militant. Nor did they have any way of determining who in the group was militant and who was a reporter. The militants created this confusion deliberately, hiding in the general population against the rules of war. They were the ones breaking the law, and the deaths that resulted were entirely their fault. You might not like that, but it is what the International Laws of War say, and that is what determines if a crime occurred or not. The Law says it didn't.

Since when Governments care about what is written in the laws?

You better hope that they do, else you have no security at all. What stops your government taking your house and belongings without compensation? What stops the police kicking in your door and searching your home for no reason? What stops the Tax department draining your bank accounts? What stops the Government having you arrested and thrown into jail if not the Law?

You say this as you trust very naively the legal system of both Sweden and the US.

So we should let out all the people currently held in jail because you don't trust the legal system?

You are saying that "has nothing to do".
How do you know that it has nothing to do?
Why do you trust Governments so naively?

It has zero to do with trusting governments, it has to do with evidence, and so far not one person who has given an opinion that the prosecution is political has been able to back up that opinion with any solid evidence that can be investigated. A million opinions equals nothing but speculation, and speculation is worthless. Give us something real and not just a bunch of opinions.


We have been over this multiple times, you don't acknowledge it, you don't change your mind on it, you don't even seem to understand it.

Let me say it again. The allegations have nothing to do with a broken condom.

Let me say it again so you understand. The allegations have nothing to do with a broken condom.

The allegations are that Assange took advantage of woman's condition to start sexual intercourse with her in a way that he knew she had already stated was unacceptable. You even agreed that the scenario of which Assange is accused would be rape.

Let me say it again so you understand. The allegations have nothing to do with a broken condom. They have to do with Assange committing a rape.

Once again here is the evidence:

Sadly no, what you are about to do is give us a heap of opinion. Opinion is not evidence.

if the Swedish Government were really after the truth and against crimes, why they did not produce a formal complain when her ally the US had some of their soldiers commit atrocities?

Opinion and irrelevant and incorrect opinion at that

Why they did not severe their military alliance or at least issue a strong complain when no WMDs were found in Iraq?

Not even opinion, this is a question. Opinions aren't evidence and questions certainly aren't. I suggest you buy yourself a dictionary and look up the word "evidence" because you keep using this word and I know it doesn't mean what you think it means.

If they did not, it means that they are not after justice and truth and it is all politics, therefore the suspect that they are after Assange, who has commit way minor crimes in comparison, for the leaks and not for the rapes, stands.

Opinion, jumping to conclusions, speculation at its worst, apart from that, it’s also a total non-sequencer.

If you really believe wwhat your Governments tell you no matter what, then I have a bridge in Sahara desert to sell you.
Good price.

Did you believe your Government when they told you that you had paid your taxes last year?
 
If true, a bit embarrassing for GCHQ and the British government I suppose; but not exactly a thunderbolt.

Yes, but then again I know a couple of people at GCHQ and, well, they're people.
I'm surprised there was only one message that thought this...in fact, that he only managed to dig one out that implies a "fit up" speaks volumes in my mind. The idea that people working there would be any different a mix from any other group is odd, frankly. Consequently there are going to be as many CTists there as anywhere else. Hell, possibly more.

The other one, about him being a fool, is nice, though.
 
It is a little difficult to sever a military alliance you never entered into in the first place. Sweden has been militarily neutral since the Napoleonic wars.

NATO-Sweden relations should be viewed through the Partnership for Peace framework which Sweden joined in 1994. NATO and Sweden actively cooperate in peace and security operations and have developed practical cooperation in many other areas.


Swedish cooperation with NATO is based on a longstanding policy of military non-alignment and a firm national consensus. From this basis, Sweden selects areas of cooperation with NATO that match joint objectives.

NATO values very highly its relations with Sweden. The Allies view Sweden as an effective and pro-active partner and contributor to international security, which shares key values such as the promotion of international security, democracy and human rights.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_52535.htm
 
And why is he still alive if we want him that desperately?

As he lives in a foreign embassy.
Violating the neutrality of a foreign embassy was even threatened.
Almost a unique situation.
For a broken condom, naive people seem to believe.. :D
 
Gibney doc drops may 24

“There’s a rich irony there,” suggests Gibney. “Wikileaks was supposed to be all about the truth. But Assange started telling lies for what he called a noble cause, to enhance his reputation. It was a classic character arc,” said Gibney, “The idealist became the very thing he was against.”

All cult leaders fall into this trap.
 
As he lives in a foreign embassy.
Violating the neutrality of a foreign embassy was even threatened.
Almost a unique situation.
For a broken condom, naive people seem to believe.. :D

We can kill him without anybody knowing we did it, and without any indication of why he was dead. And you think the USA cares about violating an embassy??? LOL.
 
If it is OK for you to invade a country outside the UN legality and shooting at civilians from a chopper and laughing at them soon after, we have a very different framework of morality
Morality does not equal law. Swedish law requires that they investigate crimes. This may be deduced from links previously posted and also the fact that they have a police force.
No.
But if you do not protest when a country you have strong relationships with gives a free ride to people who kill and slaughter, then you are an hyposcrite and a coward
Relevance?
Expecially if soon after you want to be taken seriously for the prosecution of someone in the UK for sex crimes
Well they tried prosecuting him in Sweden so he ran to the UK so that's where they have to prosecute him.
So you really think they are looking for "justice"?
Morality and justice and law are each different things, sadly.
But then they go after Assange so much because of a sex crime.
Are they credible?
Not much
Emphasis added. Yes it's a crime so the police and prosecution went after him because that's what the law requires.
Sweden did not go after much immoral actions by the US Government, but it is spending a lot of energy to go after Assange, which did not do anything remotely like.
Very suspcious

It's suspicious that the Swedish police investigated and the Swedish legal system went after Assange for allegedly committing offences against Swedish citizens on Swedish soil?
OK.
Call them sex crimes.
Because they are, as agreed by both Swedish and UK courts (at the highest level).
Nothing remotely close to start a war that lead to 200000+ deaths
Something the US and the UK did, with the support of Japan
Outside the UN legality or on very shacky legal grounds.
Sweden did not protest much.
But then they go after Assange in the UK for sex crimes.
Suspicious
It's suspicious the police investigate crimes, again?
 
Watanabe, Why didn't the USA just extradite him from the UK? They have a very good extradition treaty with the UK.
 
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