Julian Assange: rapist or not?

[Here_to_learn]

What you do not seem to grasp is that, for some terrorist/communists/psychopaths/conspiracy theorists like former Brazilian President Lula, Micheal Moore, Oliver Stone, and few other intellectuals around the world, the Wikileaks matter and the Assange rape charges are indeed the very same matter and therefore they do not need separate threads.
Of course, you and most people here who know the right thing as you were in the room with Assange when he raped that woman so you know it for sure that nobody made it up, you know that this is not true.
But other people who have doubts, have other opinions.

Yes, I am well aware that there are people that have convinced themselves and others that there has to be a connection. I find it quite interesting, since it seems to relay on the thought that since JA (in their and may eyes) is doing something good with Wikileaks, therefore he cannot have done anything bad (as in rape/sexual assault).

I do not belive in the absolute goodness of persons - I really do believe that people can do something really good in the view of the public, and still be complete jerks on the side.

However, this does not mean that I "know for sure that nobody made it up", I absolutely do not know this, and have not said so either. What I do believe is that I haven't seen any evidence that anyone has lied with regards to the accusations. (Well, OK, apart from JAs lawyer of course)

So here is my though on if he's a rapist - "Innocent unless proven guilty" (thank you nathan!)

And here is my though on what should happen: It's very simple - due process.

Yes, courts can be lied to, courts can be influenced by politics. But it's the best system we have. And it's pretty good in Sweden. As JA is well aware, there exist the possibility to appeal to higher courts should the judgement go against him - this is also an example of the system being setup in a way to minimize any undue influence.

 

[Wudang]

Yes, I am well aware that there are people that have convinced themselves and others that there has to be a connection. I find it quite interesting, since it seems to relay on the thought that since JA (in their and may eyes) is doing something good with Wikileaks, therefore he cannot have done anything bad (as in rape/sexual assault).

You see it on both sides of the political spectrum from Thatcher and her "one of us" to those on the left who take "class war" rhetoric a little too literally. Too bad they didn't read their Elliot "“This then is the ultimate treason, to do the right thing for the wrong reason"

Yes, courts can be lied to, courts can be influenced by politics. But it's the best system we have. And it's pretty good in Sweden. As JA is well aware, there exist the possibility to appeal to higher courts should the judgement go against him - this is also an example of the system being setup in a way to minimize any undue influence.

As we've been seeing in the UK with Abu Hamza extradition case where the UK government really want him out the country because he's a cartoon villain in the UK newspapers that a lot of swing voters read. And while I'd like to see him kicked out, I like even more seeing a judiciary that stands for due process above political convenience.

 

[zooterkin]

As we've been seeing in the UK with Abu Hamza extradition case where the UK government really want him out the country because he's a cartoon villain in the UK newspapers that a lot of swing voters read. And while I'd like to see him kicked out, I like even more seeing a judiciary that stands for due process above political convenience.

You'd like? You can rejoice, he's already gone. The current extradition case is Abu Qatada, to Jordan.

 

[Wudang]

Damn - thanks Zooterkin - that's the case I meant.

 

[zooterkin]

Damn - thanks Zooterkin - that's the case I meant.

I wasn't sure; Abu Hamza is a better fit for "cartoon villain", certainly. I think both cases show a respect for due process and human rights that some (including HMtQ, apparently) may find a bit tedious.

 

[John Mekki]

Yes, I am well aware that there are people that have convinced themselves and others that there has to be a connection. I find it quite interesting, since it seems to relay on the thought that since JA (in their and may eyes) is doing something good with Wikileaks, therefore he cannot have done anything bad (as in rape/sexual assault).

And where exactly have I said that?

I do not belive in the absolute goodness of persons - I really do believe that people can do something really good in the view of the public, and still be complete jerks on the side.

And I can not but agree with you

However, this does not mean that I "know for sure that nobody made it up", I absolutely do not know this, and have not said so either. What I do believe is that I haven't seen any evidence that anyone has lied with regards to the accusations. (Well, OK, apart from JAs lawyer of course)

I would say that I also agree 100% on this as well.

So here is my though on if he's a rapist - "Innocent unless proven guilty" (thank you nathan!)

This is becoming boring. I have to agree again.

And here is my though on what should happen: It's very simple - due process.

My contribution to this exchange is proving useless.
I have to agree again.

Yes, courts can be lied to, courts can be influenced by politics. But it's the best system we have.

And here unfortunately I do not agree.
It is not the best system that we can have

And it's pretty good in Sweden. As JA is well aware, there exist the possibility to appeal to higher courts should the judgement go against him - this is also an example of the system being setup in a way to minimize any undue influence.

Minimize does not mean eliminate.
This is one point.
And another point is that we would agree that Assange` s case is somehow peculiar as I do not think many of the cases that made up that database you are linking to are about people who caused some of the biggest leaks in human history

 

[John Mekki]

No, for me to call a person a conspiracy theorist it takes for them to actually make up or imply a conspiracy without showing any evidence for said conspiracy.

While you can say that Assange should be tried for rape without showing any evidence that he is a rapist

Which takes us back to the question I asked to you didn't wan't to answer - at what level do you have evidence that the lies are?

Which takes us back to the question I asked to you didn't wan't to answer - at what level do you have evidence that the rapes occurred are?

You do know that Ecuador actually do want JA to answer to the accusations?

And do you know that I fully agree on this with Ecuador?

But I guess that's just a lie since Swedish courts can be lied to?

Maybe it is a possibility

 

[Wudang]

While you can say that Assange should be tried for rape without showing any evidence that he is a rapist

http://jackofkent.com/2012/06/assange-would-the-rape-allegation-also-be-rape-under-english-law/

Which takes us back to the question I asked to you didn't wan't to answer - at what level do you have evidence that the rapes occurred are?

http://jackofkent.com/2012/06/assange-would-the-rape-allegation-also-be-rape-under-english-law/

And do you know that I fully agree on this with Ecuador?



Maybe it is a possibility

Well certainly Ecuador (or Correa) seems to hold rather unenlightened views of a woman's rights to decide what happens with her body by Western standards. But since the alleged events happened in Sweden and they would also be illegal in the UK the point is moot.

 

[Here_to_learn]

And where exactly have I said that?

When did I claim that you did? Everything is not about you, there is a whole world out there.

And here unfortunately I do not agree.
It is not the best system that we can have

So what is your suggested alternative to independent courts, and specifically how should that be applied in the JA case?

Minimize does not mean eliminate.
This is one point.
And another point is that we would agree that Assange` s case is somehow peculiar as I do not think many of the cases that made up that database you are linking to are about people who caused some of the biggest leaks in human history

So your argument is that since JA is special (he started/fronted Wikileaks), therefore the case is special?

Well, in my view we cannot do this kind of decision based on statistics. If there is only one person in the world that fits this profile, we won't be able to find any other case that is like this. But to say that "therefore it did not happen" just doesn't work. There is a first for everything.

So I'm sorry but that argument does not work for me. That is like saying that since there have never before 2001 been two towers in NY that fell due to a terrorist attack using airplanes, it couldn't have happened in 2001 either. You will need to show me that lies have been involved.

 

[Here_to_learn]

While you can say that Assange should be tried for rape without showing any evidence that he is a rapist

Which takes us back to the question I asked to you didn't wan't to answer - at what level do you have evidence that the rapes occurred are?

I do not collect evidence - that is not my job. The point with an independent judicial system is that it has to collect the evidence.

Specifically the police has to collect evidence. The prosecution authority has to decide if the evidence is enough to prosecute. The evidence is presented to the courts by the prosecution, and the courts make the decision on whether to convict.

This process has been running for quite some time now. Along the way (at least some of) the evidence collection that the police and prosecutors have done has been leaked, and has also been translated to English. Some of it can be read in the courts documents from England. A lot of this has been linked from the Jack of Kent blog that you have already gotten links to. Here are some additional links:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/80912442/Agreed-Facts-Assange-Case
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/assange-approved-judgment.pdf
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/jud-aut-sweden-v-assange-judgment.pdf
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition

And do you know that I fully agree on this with Ecuador?

You agree that JA should answer to the Swedish judicial system? Could you then spell out what in your opinion should happen?

Maybe it is a possibility

What is a possibility? That Ricardo Patiño lied about that JA should answer to the accusations? I'm sorry, but I can't make head or tails on what you are trying to say.

 

[Here_to_learn]

This process has been running for quite some time now.

I forgot to link to the timeline that shows when the different courts have been involved.

This post might also be relevant, depending on where this discussion will go next.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I haven't posted here for a bit, got busy in other threads and chasing dragons in Skyrim.

John, it appears that your major issue is that the court systems and political process can be corrupted. However, I'd like you to think on this for a bit. When it comes to Political Corruption, Sweeden is ranked 4th on the Corruptions Perception Index, that means that it is seen as the the fourth least corrupt country on the plant, only just behind my own, Norway and Finland. How do you reconcile this with your views?

 

[PhantomWolf]

A second querstion to consider. I think we have already established that you agree that if a prosecution service believes that it has a prosecutable case that it should persue that case as required to get it to trial.

Do you agree that if a prosecution service is persuring a criminal case it believes should be tried, that opinions and commentary from the general public, and foriegn nationals on that case should be entirely irrelevant to the service doing its job?

 

[bit_pattern]

Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden

I bet all the assange haters would be as equally adamant that if someone else was wanted for a crime that doesn't exist in the West, say adultery in an Islamic country that they too go and face the music, even if it meant getting stoned to death? Right? Suuure you would

 

[tyr_13]

Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden

False.

I bet all the assange haters would be as equally adamant that if someone else was wanted for a crime that doesn't exist in the West, say adultery in an Islamic country that they too go and face the music, even if it meant getting stoned to death? Right? Suuure you would

Sweden has the death penalty, let along stoning?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

False.

Did he really say that? Way to be objective.

From our Australian laws:
http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/25. Sexual Offences/‘rape’-penetrative-sexual-offence

the prosecution must prove that sexual penetration took place
without the consent of the complainant. These are the physical elements of the offence, or actus reus. In the common law jurisdictions—NSW, Victoria, South Australia and the ACT—the prosecution must also prove that the accused knew that the victim was not consenting or was reckless about whether there was such consent.[24] This is known as the mental element of the offence, or mens rea.

It took me 20 seconds to find this and I would reckon that it covers same.

 

[theprestige]

Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden

Could you at least bother to read the thread, before spouting off the same asinine conspiracy theory as every other Assange lover so far?

 

[bit_pattern]

False.



Sweden has the death penalty, let along stoning?

Is not Islamic either, genius. Clearly the concept of an analogy is beyond you.

 

[theprestige]

Is not Islamic either, genius. Clearly the concept of an analogy is beyond you.

Analogizing Sweden to a hypothetical Islamic dictatorship is a blatant straw man.

It's the kind of weaksauce fallacy that gets presented as a worthwhile "analogy" only when someone doesn't have any kind of rational argument to present.

 

[John Mekki]

http://jackofkent.com/2012/06/assange-would-the-rape-allegation-also-be-rape-under-english-law/

http://jackofkent.com/2012/06/assange-would-the-rape-allegation-also-be-rape-under-english-law/

I have no intention to read another person blog.
If you have something to say, just quote or write it here

Well certainly Ecuador (or Correa) seems to hold rather unenlightened views of a woman's rights to decide what happens with her body by Western standards.

This may be a possibility.
Another possibility may be that is just you who does not understand a heck of what is going on.

But since the alleged events happened in Sweden and they would also be illegal in the UK the point is moot.

I was just replying to a point that HTL was writing, and you do not seem to follow the discussion