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Jonbennet Ramsey

That's not a scenario which fits the evidence. An angry parent losing control resulting in an accidental death fits the evidence.
So it makes more sense for a parent to garrot and then bash a six year old girls head in than a stranger doing it? I mean the autopsy showed signs of sexual abuse. A parent getting mad at his or her child and then punishing her by sexually molesting her, garroting her and then bashing her head in? Nope I say a stranger did it to her. Possibly a person known to the Ramseys and the Ramseys are keeping their mouth shut because perhaps they were doing the same thing to other kids.
 
If there is "only one likely explanation" then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The reality is, the evidence is at least as consistent, if not more consistent, with an intruder. There is an obvious entry and exit point, items used in the crime not found in the house, DNA evidence found in three separate places both on the outside and in the panties of JonBenet's clothing, and so on. Lou Smit, a veteran detective hired by the Boulder Police to head the investigation team, looked at the evidence and believes it convincingly points to an intruder. John Douglas, a veteran FBI agent and serial killer expert, says the same. Judge Julie Carnes, a Federal Judge and former prosecutor, ruled there is "virtually no evidence" that the Ramseys murdered their child. Etc.

I'm not going to stay it is an open and shut case either way., but claimimg that But there is "only one likely explanation" that fits the evidence is absurd.

We live in a society that has an irrational level of fear that children will be abducted or killed by a stranger. There are only about 100 cases each year in the US, but still parents drive children to school or the bus stop to keep them safe from strangers.

But when it does happen, public perception turns the logic around. We automatically assume that the parents murdered their own children.

The clue might be that both of these assumptions allow us to treat people as guilty without requiring evidence.
 
You mean like those twitchy eyelid things I get after my third cup of espresso? Or perhaps when the drugs wear off and I begin to actually feel the pain again from that botched wisdom tooth extraction?
All the posts clearly stating detecting deceit has nothing to do with twitching eyes, guilty looks, looking down, changing heart or respiratory rates and yet the posts continue which ignore the evidence based deceit cues of biologically determined facial emotional reflexes.

I ask, who is acting on confirmation bias and who is considering the actual evidence here?
Please define these "biologically determined facial emotional reflexes", especially if they do not involve twitches, changes in expression or muscular contractions (like those due to pain).

Please also include a list of valid science-based resources that would verify your claim as more than visual phrenology and your own confirmation bias. Something that takes into account cultural differences in behavior, as well as medical conditions (like Asperger's or Turrette's syndromes, for example).
 
Did you see the picture? He looks guilty. I'm an expert in this area, and I've never been wrong.

Well, it's obvious too that he's in a jail or prison cell, so he must be guilty.

My ex-wife's neighbor had a cousin whose hairdresser's boyfriend wore wife-beaters (And they don't call those shirts "wife beaters" for lack of a Hawai'ian pattern...), had a tattoo and spent time in jail, and everybody knew he was a child abuser, even if the jury did let him off!

... "lack of evidence" indeed ... you just had to look at him to know he was guilty as Hell ...

:xrolleyes
 
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Concerned about what? The police not finding the body would make them concerned? Why??? If anything, it would work to their favor. Not finding a body would make it look like an actual kidnapping, and make their alleged fake note far less "clumsy." If someone accidentally kills their daughter and wants to conceal the crime, I have a hard time seeing how they would be concerned if the police didn't find the body.
So then they'd have a body to get rid of. Unless you are suggesting they should leave it rotting in the cellar.

I understand you don't see the evidence the same way I do. But you can't discount JR finding the body here by saying it doesn't make sense. When people stage a crime scene to cover up the accidental killing of their child (a not that rare of an event, sadly) you have people acting rashly, not necessarily rationally. If you stage the scene and expect the police to discover the scene you set up and they don't, you wouldn't reevaluate your plan, you'd find a way to have the scene discovered.



He could make his reaction authentic without finding the body himself. All finding the body himself does is cast suspicion upon himself.
And yet it has the opposite effect on your assessment.



Again I ask you: What scenario in which John Ramsey finds or is involved in finding the body would not be consistent with him "knowing where to look"? As far as I can tell, this is circular logic: John Ramsey found the body because he knew where to look. And the proof that he knew where to look is that he found the body.
I agree in and of itself, finding the body is not evidence of guilt. However, finding the body was consistent with knowing where it was.



It makes a lot of sense, particularly if the whole thing was a kidnapping gone bad. The items not found were consistent with what somebody would bring for a kidnapping: the duct tape, and the rope.
But not the paintbrushes. And not taking the child to the basement instead of out of the house. And not taking the time to fashion an elaborate garrote. And not smashing the kid's head and strangling the child. And not writing the ransom note including writing it twice. Why leave the body? Either you murder the kid and leave, or write the ransom note and take the child, dead or alive with you. Or you have a bizarre sex fantasy involving the garrote and you take the child to a location where you will have privacy and time. Why go to a middle room in the basement as well? That's like purposefully fleeing down a dead end.

You can take any number of single pieces of evidence here and say this isn't logical if [X] committed the murder. But when you look at the entire picture, there is no outsider hypothesis that fits all the evidence better than a family murder covered up.

Would an outsider murder the child in the bedroom? Upstairs where other family members were? It makes a bit of noise to crack a person's skull as badly as JBR's skull was fractured. Do you think the guy took the kid to the basement instead of going out the door? There was no murder scene found. So that means the killer had time to erase traces of the scene. That's not a guy in a hurry to leave. Why would he even bother given he was leaving the body behind?

The garrote was not made and brought to the room. JBR's hair was threaded through it. That means it was fashioned around the child's neck, not made and then wrapped around the neck.

I'd like to hear your hypothesis of how an outsider would have proceeded through the house, what occurred where and when that makes more sense than an accidental killing during physical abuse and a subsequent staged crime scene to cover it up. It's not hard, if you put the parents in as murderer and accomplice in the cover up. But try to do it with an intruder and you need a lot of stretching of the probable.



If there is "only one likely explanation" then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The reality is, the evidence is at least as consistent, if not more consistent, with an intruder. There is an obvious entry and exit point, items used in the crime not found in the house, DNA evidence found in three separate places both on the outside and in the panties of JonBenet's clothing, and so on. Lou Smit, a veteran detective hired by the Boulder Police to head the investigation team, looked at the evidence and believes it convincingly points to an intruder. John Douglas, a veteran FBI agent and serial killer expert, says the same. Judge Julie Carnes, a Federal Judge and former prosecutor, ruled there is "virtually no evidence" that the Ramseys murdered their child. Etc.
Some of that is political. Defense attorneys can always produce experts who say there's no evidence. The Ramsey's had some influence in that police department which could explain the opinions you note.

The DNA evidence of an unknown male was too small to also make sense. If he had gloves on, you wouldn't find it in the places it was found. If he didn't you'd have a lot more of it and maybe fingerprints. The amount of DNA we are talking about here is consistent with contamination from any number of sources, most likely on JBR's dirty hands.

Did the police find finger or glove prints? So did the guy wipe everything off he touched? That's a lot of cleanup.

The tape and rope being pieces within the house but not on their original spools is not hard to imagine. The Ramseys tossing the tape roll and/or rope source is not implausible.

I'm not going to stay it is an open and shut case either way, but claiming that there is "only one likely explanation" that fits the evidence is absurd.
We have different opinions on this.
 
Now it's you creating straw men. I said, if everying you're talking to takes the same interpretation of what you say, and that's not what you meant, you might perhaps consider that you haven't explained yourself very well.
An analogy is not a straw man.

I clearly stated numerous times: This is not about "looking guilty" as you keep claiming it is about. And yet that is the straw man being fought here.
 
So it makes more sense for a parent to garrot and then bash a six year old girls head in than a stranger doing it? I mean the autopsy showed signs of sexual abuse. A parent getting mad at his or her child and then punishing her by sexually molesting her, garroting her and then bashing her head in? Nope I say a stranger did it to her. Possibly a person known to the Ramseys and the Ramseys are keeping their mouth shut because perhaps they were doing the same thing to other kids.
I have to challenge your claim the autopsy showed evidence of sexual assault. No such conclusion was in the autopsy.

From 's autopsy link:
On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.

...Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen.
"Chronic inflammation", not acute inflammation. So either you suggest chronic sexual abuse or the cause is not sexual. These findings are consistent with something akin to diaper rash from frequent bed wetting or other toileting problems. They could be consistent with chronic sexual abuse. I've steered clear of that claim because it doesn't fit with the cracked skull.

However, if you just take the autopsy findings on their own merit, the findings were considered inconclusive with many experts disagreeing. If you read through these opinions, what is clear is the question is about chronic sexual abuse vs not sexual injuries. There's not much here in the way of expert opinions supporting the conclusion of a single sexual assault.
 
Please define these "biologically determined facial emotional reflexes", especially if they do not involve twitches, changes in expression or muscular contractions (like those due to pain).

Please also include a list of valid science-based resources that would verify your claim as more than visual phrenology and your own confirmation bias. Something that takes into account cultural differences in behavior, as well as medical conditions (like Asperger's or Turrette's syndromes, for example).
If you read the Frank and Ekland citations I posted it is more thoroughly discussed. I already explained it so this is just a repeat of what I already posted. Basically, facial emotional expressions are biologically determined. A smile is the same in all cultures. Even non-human primates smile. Fear expressed on the face is consistent, pain is consistent, surprise, sadness and so on, all consistent with only cultural modification, but not cultural origination. So the bottom line is these facial expressions are often involuntary responses to our emotions. What Frank and Eklund found was these emotions are briefly expressed in about 80% of the people who are being deceitful with the emotional 'micro-flash' occurring before the voluntary override, so to speak. So what you get are very brief facial expressions of emotions which are inconsistent with the verbal message.

As for the scientific citations, I already posted those.
 
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Eerily picture. Not that I was unaware of the beauty pageants for children. But you could say that she was some sort of star. And she died a tragic death. So it's like looking at a picture of any star that died a tragic death. It's like she's looking at me from the vanishing point of eternity.
I posted "Travel well little sweetheart". Her grave is a shrine in Georgia.
 
Christmas Day, too. Christmas Day for a six-year-old.

I don't see why this should be insoluble, if the cops haven't given up. There's at least evidence to work with.

Rolfe.
 
Christmas Day, too. Christmas Day for a six-year-old.

I don't see why this should be insoluble, if the cops haven't given up. There's at least evidence to work with.

Rolfe.

You'd think they could just round up the people in the town and arrest the ones who look guilty.
 
I'm wondering about the unknown DNA. What sort of a DNA database do they have in the USA? What's the chance of finding a match?

Rolfe.
 
I'm wondering about the unknown DNA. What sort of a DNA database do they have in the USA? What's the chance of finding a match?

Rolfe.

They'd only have a match if the perp had previously committed a felony and they had his DNA. Of course, they might find that it matches some sort of weird sheep/human hybrid.
 
I'm wondering about the unknown DNA. What sort of a DNA database do they have in the USA? What's the chance of finding a match?

Rolfe.
While its hard to believe that whoever did this to Jonbennet was never arrested previously or after the crime its possible that the murderer either had never committed this type of crime before or ever again after this particular murder. maybe the perp scared himself straight. Also he may have committed suicide.
 
While its hard to believe that whoever did this to Jonbennet was never arrested previously or after the crime its possible that the murderer either had never committed this type of crime before or ever again after this particular murder. maybe the perp scared himself straight. Also he may have committed suicide.

At the time of this murder, we were not routinely collecting DNA samples from people convicted of crimes. The murderer could have prior convictions and still not be in the DNA databases.

The fact that his DNA hasn't shown up in later crimes is a good indication that the murderer is no longer alive.
 
There have been muttterings here that too many people's DNA is kept on file - including people who've never been charged, let alone convicted. People see it as an invasion of privacy. However, it's in cases like this you feel there may be some merit to it. There was a case fairly recently where a serious offender was caught because his son committed some minor misdemeanour, and it was realised that the paternal DNA of the sample was a match for the unsolved crime.

Rolfe.
 
At the time of this murder, we were not routinely collecting DNA samples from people convicted of crimes. The murderer could have prior convictions and still not be in the DNA databases.

The fact that his DNA hasn't shown up in later crimes is a good indication that the murderer is no longer alive.


What if he'd been jailed for a different offence soon afterwards? Do they have DNA profiles of people in jail?

Rolfe.
 

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