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Jonbennet Ramsey

...The fact that you or I or another person-in-the-street may watch a tv interview with someone and think, Ooh, they looked shifty when they said that, is not in my opinion something we should give a lot of weight to.....
It is a false assumption I've drawn the conclusion I did from watching a single interview or even a couple interviews. The Ramsey case was in the news for months. They went on numerous talk shows and news interviews. Many details of the case were public.
 
And what exactly were they interrogating the POWs about?

Depending which theatre the interview was in. Many SS soliders and officers donned regular army uniforms to avoid the obvious issues that could be raised about their actions in the war

There was also many instances of poor treatment and even killing of captured allied troops. One I specifically recall was just before the fall of Dunkirk a squad of British soliders were herded into a barn and German soliders threw hand grenades through the windows killing all but one of the solider
 
First of all, what exactly is your 'accuracy rate' when you do your analysis? Have all your suspicions always been validated? If not, how do you know that at least some of your accusations might be unfounded when you do them at your job?
While I don't know about any cases of abuse that I missed, of the one's I've called CPS about, all were proved to be abuse situations except one and that one was not disproved, I just wasn't privy to the final outcome since it was a school child and not my patient.

Secondly, while you might be able to look for 'non-verbal' clues in your job, you do get to interact a lot more closely with the patients you see than you did by just watching the Ramsey's on TV. I also rather suspect that the type of things you're trained to look for are different than what you'd be looking for in the Ramsey case.
It's just not rocket science to detect the behaviors of people who are abused or who are abusing. There are very classic repeatable cues.

Thirdly, you said you're examining the patient for non-verbal clues. Given the fact that those are the people who have experienced the trauma, its quite possible that those people will give more definite clues than the supposed perpetrators.

So, while its possible to gain some information from non-verbal clues, I do not think the accuracy is high enough to over-ride other factors in the case, including the lack of motive and generally contradictory evidence (such as outside debris found at the scene and the presence of items used in the crime that were not found in the house).
How do you figure lack of motive? Death by accident during abuse is one motive.

As for the non-verbal cues, the ransom note and the fact John Ramsey retrieved the body when the police didn't search the house as he probably expected them to do were important. The murder weapon made no sense unless one of the Ramey's did it. The objects used all came from within the house. There was no reason for a murderer to leave the body in the house or commit the crime in the house. If you were a stranger, would you stay in the house?

There was lots of reason to suspect the Ramseys. Their behavior added significantly to the list but it wasn't the only evidence. But as for their behavior, there were numerous classic cues, most significantly emotion that didn't match the discussion.
 
If you look at actual scientific studies, both Skeptic Ginger and your father are wrong.
Actually, I have looked at the studies. There are many out there which don't support being able to detect deception.

The problem is, it's like assessing a number of diet plans and finding they all fail. Does that mean all diets ever will always fail?

You have to first sort out the techniques, then test the techniques. In nursing and medicine, there are studies that show consistent cues to child and domestic partner abuse both in the abuser and the abused.

In police work, I believe there are also consistent behaviors one sees in common between criminals who are denying their crimes.

This is what I tried to point out in the above post, just because we have seen lie detectors don't work and some techniques people claim are effective are not, doe not mean one should dismiss all claims as if they were all equal. They are not.
 
Sure, that's well known, even here in remotest North Carolina.

Apparently my comedy/sarcasm needs work.

Still, if dingos had been in the area...
I'm particularly sensitive to mothers accused of child abuse they didn't commit. Despite the fact I am taking the opposite position here.
 
Segnosaur;5683361.... Never said she was [i said:
completely[/i] wrong. I said that A: whatever 'skills' she has in picking up on non-verbal clues might be oriented towards the medical field, not to "lie detection/criminality", and B: even if her skills are better than "random chance", I still doubt they'd be good enough to over-ride other evidence (especially when there are alternate explanations for the parent's behavior)....
For the record, child and domestic partner abuse are both medical diagnoses and crimes.

And I already addressed the issue there was quite a bit to go on in this case to make an assessment.
 
the fact John Ramsey retrieved the body when the police didn't search the house as he probably expected them to do were important.

Except that he only went and looked (with another person) after being told to do so, and they were looking for anything that might be out of place to help the police, they weren't expecting a body.

The murder weapon made no sense unless one of the Ramey's did it. The objects used all came from within the house.

Also untrue, the ligature and wrist ties were the same material, and was not able to be matched to anything in the house. Nor was the Duct Tape that was over her mouth.

There was no reason for a murderer to leave the body in the house or commit the crime in the house.

At least none you can think of.

If you were a stranger, would you stay in the house?

Arguments from incredulity

There was lots of reason to suspect the Ramseys. Their behavior added significantly to the list but it wasn't the only evidence. But as for their behavior, there were numerous classic cues, most significantly emotion that didn't match the discussion.

And there are a lot of reasons to not:

•Male DNA found on JonBenét's panties that is not the DNA of anyone in the Ramsey family and has not been sourced;
•Male DNA found under JonBenét's fingernails of both hands that is not the DNA of anyone in the Ramsey family and has not been sourced;
•Two pairs of marks on JonBenét's body which indicate that a stun gun was used to subject and torture her;
•Evidence of an intruder found in the Ramseys' basement, including a broken open window with a suitcase and broken glass under it, and a window-well to this window with signs of recent disturbance;
•Material from the window-well found in the room where JonBenét was discovered;
•Male pubic or ancillary hair and numerous fibers found on JonBenét's body, clothing and blanket which do not match anything in the Ramsey home and have not been sourced;
•Unidentified shoe prints in the basement and unidentified palm prints on the door to the room where JonBenét was found, which do not match those of anyone in the Ramsey home and have not been sourced;
•JonBenét's autopsy findings, which indicate that she was sexually assaulted, strangled, tortured and then bludgeoned at or near the point of death
•physical evidence of the manner and timing of her death which does not fit the theory of an accidental killing by a parent or sibling followed by staging;
•The garrote and slipknots used to bind and kill JonBenét were sophisticated torture and bondage devices which no one in the Ramsey family had the knowledge to construct;
•Materials used to assault and strangle JonBenét. The stun gun, nylon cord and duct tape which necessarily existed but which were never owned by the Ramseys and were not found in their home;
•A missing portion of the paintbrush handle which was used to construct the garrote and may have been used to sexually assault JonBenét;
•A three-page handwritten ransom note which law enforcement experts have not identified as being authored by any member of the Ramsey family;
•Missing pages from the pad on which the ransom note was written;
•The 'butler's' door found open the morning of the murder, near which was found an unsourced baseball bat that had fibers on it consistent with those found in the basement where JonBenét's body was found
 
This anecdote is meaningless. You are comparing a single comment, we don't know the doctors' skills regardless of his education, and many other issues.


Meaningless? Anecdote? Single comment?

What don't we know? The doctor in question was one Professor David Southall, and the case has been widely reported. I just pulled up a gadzillion links on Google.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3808515.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/jul/23/health.medicineandhealth
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-Clark-case-apologised-accusing-husband.html

David Southall, 59, was forbidden from working on child protection cases for three years after he was found guilty of serious professional misconduct in 2004.

He was severely criticised by the General Medical Council after it emerged he had contacted police saying it was "beyond reasonable doubt" that Steve Clark murdered his sons Christopher and Harry after watching a TV programme about the case.


And so on. This man was a senior consultant paediatrician with a professorial position. No doubt he was "confident" that his reading of Steve Clark's body language on the TV documentary was correct. Unfortunately he didn't just confine his interest in the case to posting about it on internet forums - he submitted a formal accusation to the police.

As it happened, the police had already looked extremely closely at Steve Clark in connection with the deaths of his two sons, and had cast-iron alibi evidence showing he could not possibly have been involved. And in fact three years after Southall's accusation, it was proved that the babies died of natural causes. A pathologist had withheld vital lab results from both the medical teams and the defence experts, which were only uncovered by accident by the defence volunteers while they were following up an unrelated line of enquiry.

I think this is a salutory warning against doing the sort of thing you're doing.

You couldn't say it was 100% certain they were guilty even if the Ramseys were convicted in a court of law.


Well, that rather depends on the evidence presented in court, doesn't it? I'm sure we all have examples of cases we've followed where we were utterly convinced by the evidence, others where we believed the conviction was sound but not to the level of complete certainty, and others were we're very doubtful of the guilt of the accused.

Evidence trumps guesswork and feelings every time.

So I'm not claiming absolute knowledge here. But that's no reason to toss out years of experience reading non-verbal cues in patient interviews including the cues of abusive parents.


I've no doubt Professor Southall felt exactly the same way.

I really don't need to convince any of you to be confident in my assessment. That's all for your own assessment. You don't know me nor my skills. But I am going to say that just because we've all discussed the failure of lie detecting is no reason to dismiss the skills of observation outright.


It's that "confident" bit that worries me a lot. You're frequently very "confident" about stuff you assert, but then a bit more enquiry reveals surprising gaps in the knowledge base and so on.

Nobody can be "confident" about their assessment of someone's guilt just by reading body language. We can all express our opinions, and I've done that too, but a bit of open-mindedness and even humility is in order when assessing the weight and value of such opinions.

PhantomWolf posted a lot of evidence which seems to counter your "confident" opinion. And as I said, evidence trumps guesswork and feelings every time.

Rolfe.
 
How do you figure lack of motive? Death by accident during abuse is one motive.

Except that there isn't a shred of evidence suggesting abuse, anywhere. No history of abuse. No friends or acquaintances who noted even a possibility of abuse. Nothing on the body that suggested prior abuse. Nothing. As always, it's virtually impossible to prove a negative so I suppose it's possible she was abused, but as with much of the evidence, you have to stretch to make that case.

As for the non-verbal cues, the ransom note and the fact John Ramsey retrieved the body when the police didn't search the house as he probably expected them to do were important. The murder weapon made no sense unless one of the Ramey's did it. The objects used all came from within the house. There was no reason for a murderer to leave the body in the house or commit the crime in the house. If you were a stranger, would you stay in the house?

PhantomWolf covered this pretty well. Much of what you've written here is simply wrong. John Ramsey searched the house on the direction of the police. Duct tape and cord were not from the house. etc.

There was lots of reason to suspect the Ramseys. Their behavior added significantly to the list but it wasn't the only evidence. But as for their behavior, there were numerous classic cues, most significantly emotion that didn't match the discussion.

"Emotion that didn't match the discussion" is... wrong. People deal with crimes differently. I can't even imagine dealing with it in a case like the Ramseys where the media was all over them.

It's also worth pointing out that the police had a strategy (based on advice from the FBI) of using the media to pressure the Ramseys into a confession. That can work, but unfortunately, when it doesn't, it ends up being a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: they believe the Ramseys are guilty, so they use media pressure to try to go after them, and then the Ramseys do things because of the media pressure (like appear on talk shows to try to counter the negative stories, or get away from the area to get away from the media) that then reinforce the idea that they are "guilty."
 
This is a complete non-sequitur, as has been discussed in this and other threads.

People commit crimes for which they leave little or no actionable evidence. It doesn't follow that they are therefore innocent.

Indeed, people are sometimes proclaimed innocent by the courts even though there is plenty of evidence of their guilt. Prosecutorial incompetence, legal technicalities, juror quibbles, etc. all allow guilty men to go free after their trial. This doesn't mean they are innocent, and it doesn't mean anybody is under any obligation to consider them innocent, or treat them as innocent.

Of course, we are always obliged to treat people within the boundaries of the law, regardless of our opinions. But the courts are not so infallible, nor so powerful, that their findings must become our opinions. Even less do the courts have the power to alter reality, simply by declaring someone "not guilty".


You are absolutely right, i meant to say they should be presumed to be innocent legally, my apologies for the lapse.

I like the Scottish court system, they have 3 verdicts - guilty, not guilty and not proven. The 'not proven' seems like a great idea.
 
I like the Scottish court system, they have 3 verdicts - guilty, not guilty and not proven. The 'not proven' seems like a great idea.


No, it's not. It's a fudge that just sort of happened.

Originally there were two verdicts. Proven and Not Proven. The prosecution had to prove their case, and they either succeeded or they didn't. The verdicts reflected that. There was no assumption that the "absolute truth" had somehow been divined.

Then there was a case where the jury believed that the defendant was absolutely, no question about it, innocent. They insisted on returning their verdict as "not guilty" rather than "not proven". And the precedent was established.

Now we have three verdicts.

OK, you didn't do it.
Look, we know you did it but we can't quite manage that pesky "beyond reasonable doubt" bit.
Gotcha!

The middle one is absolutely iniquitous. It can ruin people's lives. But actually, it's the "not guilty" one that's anomalous. We don't necessarily, or usually, find out the absolute truth. We can only determine if the case has indeed been proven or not. And these should be the verdicts.

Rolfe.
 
Essentially it is not the defendant that's on trial in a Trail By Jury. Instead, what is on trial is the prosecutor's case. So, in America...

"Guilty" = The case, as presented by the prosecution, seems sufficiently sound enough to warrant sentencing the defendant -- and to a possible execution -- even though he or she may actually be "innocent-as-a-newborn-baby".

"Not Guilty" = The case, as presented by the prosecution, is not impressive enough to overcome the jury's prejudices and sympathies, and the defendant must be set free even though he or she may actually be "guilty-as-Hell".
 
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I haven't posted in a while, tired of the endless arguments that I can't resist getting myself into, but I just sat in on a presentation about Jon Benet. I think it will be interesting to those folks in the forum who concern themselves with proper methods of inquiry.

One of my mother's faculty members runs a winter intersession class about serial murder. over the 2008-2009 break she brought in the lead detectives on the BTK case, which was an incredible, riveting presentation. This past year she invited a gentleman who was on the ground floor of the serial killer fad in the 70's. He literally sat across the table from Gacy, Bundy...etc. He sells himself as a "profiler," a profession I find inherently dubious, but I don't deny his special knowledge and insight.

When the conversation turned to his work with the Boulder police on the Ramsey case, however, I became very concerned about his method. I will do my best to repeat his explanation:

He arrived at the crime scene some days after the murder and learned that the Ramseys weren't cooperating with the police. This was his first red flag. The most damning evidence he found centered around the ransom note. In the first place, it was written in a woman's handwriting with a pen they traced back to Mrs. Ramsey's bedroom (I have no idea how that went). But more importantly, the note demanded EXACTLY $118,000.00. It just so happened that earlier that week Mr. Ramsey was given a bonus at his work worth $118,000.00!!!! The presenter went on a long explanation of how people at times of stress will come up with a number they've recently heard and no one would ever ask for 118k out of the blue. Furthermore, no one else could have known about the bonus except the Ramseys.

The speaker concluded by saying something along the lines of, "I've been doing this for 30 years and I've never been so certain that someone was guilty as I was of Mrs. Ramsey."

The undergrad class was duly impressed, but I was horrified.

The institution I attended for law school has gained a relative amount of fame for exonerating falsely convicted death row inmates. They over turned so many convictions with DNA evidence that the state governer put a moratorium on the death penalty.

Having seen a bunch of those cases, almost all of the people falsely convicted were put there based on 1) eyewitness testimony and 2) SEEMING like the person who should be guilty.

And the backwards reasoning of the profiler was an elegant example of that pernicious process. Starting with the guilt by implication of hiding behind lawyers and moving to facts that seem irrefuteable in light of the accused's psychological make-up, that stuff about the pen and ransom note seem damning.

But look at it another way: First, the murderer (or team) managed to get into the house, murder Jon Benet, and escape with no one noticing. Yet it's beyond belief that he could find a pen and paper while he was there?

Second, what about the claim that ONLY the Ramsey's knew about the bonus? Maybe someone who worked in the mail room saw the check, got drunk at a bar, and complained to a friend that some rich prick made $118,000.00 in the place he worked. Once you knew about the bonus, doesn't that become THE most logical number to ask for as you know the guy can pay?

But all of that is tangential to the main point, which is that the Ramseys, like so many others (Duke LaCross, the guy from the Staircase, the man recently put to death in Texas for arson even though he was clearly innocent...etc.), had their lives destroyed because they acted funny and seemed like they should be guilty.

There's simply no place for that kind of barbaric rush to judgment in a modern legal system.
 
Essentially it is not the defendant that's on trial in a Trail By Jury. Instead, what is on trial is the prosecutor's case. So, in America...

"Guilty" = The case, as presented by the prosecution, seems sufficiently sound enough to warrant sentencing the defendant -- and to a possible execution -- even though he or she may actually be "innocent-as-a-newborn-baby".

"Not Guilty" = The case, as presented by the prosecution, is not impressive enough to overcome the jury's prejudices and sympathies, and the defendant must be set free even though he or she may actually be "guilty-as-Hell".


Exactly. Which is why the original Scots law used the terms "Proven" and "Not Proven" for these outcomes. Much more accurate, realistic, and in a real sense, non-judgemental.

Rolfe.
 
But all of that is tangential to the main point, which is that the Ramseys, like so many others (Duke LaCross, the guy from the Staircase, the man recently put to death in Texas for arson even though he was clearly innocent...etc.), had their lives destroyed because they acted funny and seemed like they should be guilty.

There's simply no place for that kind of barbaric rush to judgment in a modern legal system.


Thank you, TraneWreck, that was very interesting.

There seems to be a distressing tendency in perhaps all jurisdictions to latch on to a preferred suspect, and then interpret every piece of evidence in the light of this person's guilt. Sometimes something happens, or is discovered, to bring this train to a screeching halt and a general re-evaluatoin ensues. But then sometimes it doesn't.

I recall the original case against the first suspects in the Damilola Taylor murder. The evidence was brought to court, and strongly pressed by the prosecution. A young witness was "groomed" by the police to give evidence against the defendants. It didn't stand up, frankly. The actions proposed for the defendants to get round the fact that they had an alibi were simply preposterous. That didn't stop the press having a field day, and screaming about how these people must be guilty! One paper found an alleged "short cut" to reduce the time taken to get to the alibi location from the murder scene, but in fact the route would have taken just as long if not longer.

The accused were teenage hoodlums. The murder victim was a handsome, studious 10-year-old, whose final appearance on a CCTV camera showed him endearingly skipping towards his computer class at the local library. Of course they were guilty!

Fortunately the jury didn't buy it. The case was thown out. Re-examination of the forensic evidence showed a bloodstain on a shoe that had been missed, and that led to the identification of the real culprits. But it could so easily have happened that the first jury bought the prosecution case.

Look at Sally Clark, whom I mentioned earlier. There are still articles accessible from when she was convicted. Baby killer was lonely drunk. Every innocent action twisted to prove guilt. (Except, look at the neighbour's comment in the middle.) This woman lost two infant children. She was accused of killing them. Her third baby was taken from her at ten days old and given to foster parents. She was found guilty and jailed. She spent eight years in jail, abused by other inmates, who regularly gang up on child-killers.

By sheer chance, helpers looking for evidence that a baby alarm might have been faulty, found a pathology report (an analysis of the spinal fluid of one of the babies) that had been concealed from the defence. It proved the death was natural causes. When she was released she was unrecognisable as the same woman. She never recovered, and died of acute alcohol poisoning four years later.

But hey, she had a drink problem (she had a degree of post-natal depression and was drinking as a result). She wrote a jokey letter saying that one of the babies was whiney and demanding. She must have killed her babies!

The murder of Jill Dando was a huge case. The cops had pretty much no leads at all. (Whoever did that one was a pro.) They latched on to a local weirdo, who had been around at the time. Everything he did (and a lot of the things he did were very weird) was interpreted as guilt. He spent seven years in jail before being acquitted on his third appeal. No way in hell was that misfit capable of carrying out that professional-style execution. But he was a weirdo! There was a picture of him in black clothes and a mask, holding a gun! He must have done it!

Readers of the CT forum may have noticed some of us dissecting the conviction of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, the "Lockerbie Bomber". Again and again in that case, investigators and judges preferred the less likely of two alternative explanations for parts of the evidence - because that was the interpretation that fitted with the guilt of the accused. Sometimes they actually admitted that train of thought. The result was a striking exercise in circular reasoning, where point A was used to support point B which was used to support point C which was used to support point A, rinse and repeat. But the man was a Libyan intelligence agent! He must have done it!

The terrorist trials of the 1970s are another example. But these people were Irish! Some of them lived in squats and actually knew people in the IRA! They must have been guilty!

I sometimes wonder, if any of us were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and suspicion fell on us for some reason, what innocent parts of our lives might be dusted off and presented as evidence of our guilt? Especially if, in our shock and distress, we didn't react the way some busybody thought we should have reacted.

Rolfe.
 
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But all of that is tangential to the main point, which is that the Ramseys, like so many others (Duke LaCross, the guy from the Staircase, the man recently put to death in Texas for arson even though he was clearly innocent...etc.), had their lives destroyed because they acted funny and seemed like they should be guilty.

There's simply no place for that kind of barbaric rush to judgment in a modern legal system.

To add to this, I'll repeat a point I brought up earlier: The police had a specific strategy to use media pressure to try and get the Ramseys to confess. As such, it's not shocking that so many people are so convinced they are guilty. That was intentional. The strategy worked like a charm in ratcheting up the media pressure on the Ramseys and portraying them as the perpetrators.

The only catch was, they never confessed... and given the evidence, it seems that's because they didn't do it.
 
There seems to be a distressing tendency in perhaps all jurisdictions to latch on to a preferred suspect, and then interpret every piece of evidence in the light of this person's guilt. Sometimes something happens, or is discovered, to bring this train to a screeching halt and a general re-evaluatoin ensues. But then sometimes it doesn't.

In Gold Prospecting it is called "Marrying the Vein." It's the point in time that the prospector ceases to look for evidence that gold is there, but rather believes that the vein is there so much that everything he sees becomes evidence that he is right. We see it a lot with CTs.
 

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