John Oliver discusses torture

[Upchurch]

Then you haven't been paying attention.

I have been, but I don't quote mine.

I wouldn't be shocked to find out that I was arguing it. Not that it's impossible to get accurate information from torture but rather that because torture is so unreliable, you need reliable sources to verify it, which makes torture redundant.

 

[Ziggurat]

I have been, but I don't quote mine.

Taking the very first sentence of the very first post counts as quote mining?

 

[sunmaster14]

Yes "it doesn't work" because it's less effective than other interrogation techniques and the noise to signal ratio is too high

Where does this come from? There haven't been any studies comparing the signal to noise ratios of various interrogation techniques to my knowledge. It doesn't even make sense that the noise to signal ratio would be higher. It's not so easy to tell credible lies. It's probably even harder when you're under stress.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes "it doesn't work" because it's less effective than other interrogation techniques and the noise to signal ratio is too high

How do you know it's less effective? You don't, not really.

And "it doesn't work" means something different than "it doesn't work as well as alternatives".

 

[thaiboxerken]

Conservatives defend the use of torture. Interestingly I'm not surprised.

 

[sunmaster14]

Taking the very first sentence of the very first post counts as quote mining?

Even so, the claim that an interrogation technique is redundant because you need an independent way to verify the information is completely nonsensical.

 

[Ziggurat]

Conservatives defend the use of torture. Interestingly I'm not surprised.

Who has defended the use of torture? I haven't.

 

[sunmaster14]

<snip>

And "it doesn't work" means something different than "it doesn't work as well as alternatives".

It's an assertion that's just as baseless though. Jon Oliver basically implied that you can dispense with torture because offering to educate the detainee's kids is all it takes to get them to sing like canaries.

 

[Belz...]

Yes "it doesn't work" because it's less effective than other interrogation techniques and the noise to signal ratio is too high

That is a very odd way of using the phrase. If you have a car that doesn't always start, and also have a better car, does the first car "not work" ?

 

[Belz...]

Conservatives defend the use of torture. Interestingly I'm not surprised.

And there we have it. Zig sure saw it coming, too, because he made the effort in several posts to write that pointing out that arguments that say torture _doesn't_ work fail is not the same as defending torture. I guess he figured that people with simplistic views of reality might conflate the two because it's easier, and perhaps because of this forum's population's tendency to gang up on unpopular arguments. Thanks, Thai, for proving him right.

 

[fuelair]

]No kidding. I actually thought there was an audiobook version of the Senate Torture Report[/B], because John Oliver said so, and I wasted a few minutes on Amazon looking for it. Man, if you can't even trust a sanctimonious, mildly amusing, British comic who has more than his fair share of trouble reading lines off the teleprompter without laughing or fumbling his words, who can you trust?

I'll admit he was right that the report is a terrible pick for a book club. I recommended it to my libertarian book club, and the idea seems to have gone over like a lead balloon. Looks like we'll be reading a lawnmower repair manual next month instead.

Read in it's entirety by Helen Mirren????? I do not think so!!!!!

 

[cullennz]

Off topic, but I have always wondered what sort of person volunteers to do the torturing.

Sergeant - "What you wanna do BOY!!!!!!!"

Cadet - "I want to take people to the brink of death and watch them lose any dignity, to the point where they just become a quivering wreck begging me to stop hurting them Sir!"

Sergeant - "Your my kind of 'merican BOY!! "

 

[sunmaster14]

That is a very odd way of using the phrase. If you have a car that doesn't always start, and also have a better car, does the first car "not work" ?

I think a better analogy is that the first car is dirty and uncomfortable and probably unsafe, but it will start up right away. The other car is nice and clean and comfortable, but it won't start until you wash and wax it and establish a rapport with the engine.

 

[sunmaster14]

Read in it's entirety by Helen Mirren????? I do not think so!!!!!

I love her voice. I would even pay to hear her read a lawnmower repair manual.

 

[Ziggurat]

Read in it's entirety by Helen Mirren????? I do not think so!!!!!

Let's make an audiobook version read in its entirety by Helen Thomas. Then we can use the report as torture.

 

[Upchurch]

Taking the very first sentence of the very first post counts as quote mining?

Clearly, unless you just "haven't been paying attention."

 

[Belz...]

Clearly, unless you just "haven't been paying attention."

Come on, guys. This is schoolyard stuff.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I'm noticing a not-so-curious lack of actual evidence in support for the idea that "torture works" (ed. reliably enough to be "worth it"). It just seems to be an article of faith for some that it does.

 

[Belz...]

I'm noticing a not-so-curious lack of actual evidence in support for the idea that "torture works" (ed. reliably enough to be "worth it"). It just seems to be an article of faith for some that it does.

The discussion seems to be stuck between "it works" and "it doesn't work". I'm sure it works sometimes. Tie someone up, put some dentist's tools in front of him and ask him for his PIN number. Sure enough, he'll tell you. This isn't an endorsement, or an argument that it works most of the time or better than any other technique, but it does work sometimes.

 

[Upchurch]

Sure enough, he'll tell you. This isn't an endorsement, or an argument that it works most of the time or better than any other technique, but it does work sometimes.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that you can't get information from people using torture. What people are saying is that there are more reliable and faster ways to get the information than torture. And that there is both scientific and logical evidence to support that.