• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

John McCain in Neverland

Ron Suskind? Isn't he the same guy who tried to present as "evidence" of the Bush admin's pre-9/11 plans to invade Iraq for it's oil, a document that turned out to be nothing of the kind???

That guy? Oh yeah,...he's enough to make anyone weep! He makes Dan Rather's attempt to smear Bush with a fake-but-true memo look fair and balanced.

-z
 
So now you assert that two completely different people are the same person??? Why gee hgc, if you were John McCain and I was an insane moonbat working for CNN I could publicly humiliate you. fun stuff eh?


Now you're presenting my joke on an Internet forum as evidence in defense of McCain's lying on CNN in order to prolong a war. Priorities, man, priorities.

Whatever....the "politics of personal destruction" is alive and well I see and; as Vince Foster once infamously opined; "....here (Washington) ruining people is considered sport."

Tallyho!
-z


You can sloganeer with the best of them. Sounds a little like whining sometimes, though.
 
Ron Suskind? Isn't he the same guy who tried to present as "evidence" of the Bush admin's pre-9/11 plans to invade Iraq for it's oil, a document that turned out to be nothing of the kind???

That guy? Oh yeah,...he's enough to make anyone weep! He makes Dan Rather's attempt to smear Bush with a fake-but-true memo look fair and balanced.

-z


Yeah, that guy. Was there anything in the article I linked to you'd like to discuss?
 
No not really...just the same old canned bias from the leftist echo-chamber. Suskind is after all just a polemicist with a pulitzer. Ann Coulter sporting the Nobel Prize would not be more odious.

Try reading Natan Sharansky or Lanny Davis sometime; they're actual talented people with logical, rational, and big ideas. Polemicists just make a really good living keeping folks like you pissed off and on message. You're smart, try thinking from an open mind for a change.

-z
 
Here:
plasticgoohf.gif


It's worked for me....so far. ;)

-z
 
Rik,
It is certainly possible that your general view of things is right. This seems to me to be an area that perfect knowledge is not possible.

The problem I see with your view is that there is another possibility that seems much more likely to be true. The Iraq war/occupation has gone on for more than five years. The architects of the war have been repeatedly shown to be wrong, inept and corrupt.

At what point does it become reasonable to discount their ideas and look towards a new approach? For some people, such as yourself, that answer seems to be never. You believed in the war and the people that initiated it initially and no new set of facts seems to shake your resolution that you were right to begin with and you are right now.

Last year many in the US waited hopefully for the results of the Iraq Study Group. The idea was that a fresh non-partisan set of eyes looking at the problem might give guidance for a different approach. Bush, is reported to not have asked anybody involved with generating the report one question. Why? Was it because Bush was so well versed in the details of the situation that he had no need for an outside opinion? Or was it because Bush is so driven by his ego that he sees doing anything that suggests that his gut feel is not perfect as unacceptable?

I found this part of the article linked to by hgc as particularly telling:
Forty democratic senators were gathered for a lunch in March just off the Senate floor. I was there as a guest speaker. Joe Biden was telling a story, a story about the president. ''I was in the Oval Office a few months after we swept into Baghdad,'' he began, ''and I was telling the president of my many concerns'' -- concerns about growing problems winning the peace, the explosive mix of Shiite and Sunni, the disbanding of the Iraqi Army and problems securing the oil fields. Bush, Biden recalled, just looked at him, unflappably sure that the United States was on the right course and that all was well. '''Mr. President,' I finally said, 'How can you be so sure when you know you don't know the facts?''' Biden said that Bush stood up and put his hand on the senator's shoulder. ''My instincts,'' he said. ''My instincts.''
Suppose that Bush's instincts have nothing to do with what is good for the US and everything to do with what makes Bush feel good?

You are convinced that the US occupation of Iraq is making things better and you see Iran as this great threat to world peace. Why? Where is the evidence that the US open ended occupation of Iraq has done anything but make Iraq worse off? Isn't the belligerent posturing and actions of Iran a predictable result of US saber rattling for the last four years? There seems to be some sort of gut feel with the pro war crowd that if the US wasn't there all hell would break lose. Maybe and maybe if the US gave a timetable for its withdrawal the various Iraqi factions would understand the need to work towards some sort of political accommodation in a hurry and that the US wasn't going to be there for the long term to protect any particular faction. Not only would a timetable motivate the Iraqis, it might motivate the American leadership to use negotiation rather than threats and violence as a means of ending this conflict.

Out of nowhere, it appears that the US has begun to talk with Syria and Iran. Maybe putting a little pressure on this administration and making it clear to them that their grandiose war plans were not going to be supported has given them some new incentives to begin to talk with people.

So while I acknowledge once again that your overall view of this situation might be right, it looks to me like it is long past overdue to begin to constrain this president from using his instincts to make decisions with regard to Iraq and Iran.

And as just a small personal aside, I think that characterizing opponents of Bush and Iraq policies as left wing is a lame attempt to substitute emotion for analysis. There are many people on the right who are none too keen on this president and his war either.
 
Last edited:
Ron Suskind? Isn't he the same guy who tried to present as "evidence" of the Bush admin's pre-9/11 plans to invade Iraq for it's oil, a document that turned out to be nothing of the kind???

SO you mean all the talk about how the war was going to pay for itself with oil was a lie when they said it before the war?
 
And as just a small personal aside, I think that characterizing opponents of Bush and Iraq policies as left wing is a lame attempt to substitute emotion for analysis. There are many people on the right who are none too keen on this president and his war either.


That's part of a broad political re-alignment. What used to be the "conservative" movement is now a radical movement mainly interested in authoritarianism. They demand complete fealty to their big-government intrusiveness agenda, and all apostates are labeled "far left." Sure it has the effect of whipping true believers into true belief, but then how many others are nudged out, into the hands of the opposition.
 
I have always called 'conservatives' radicals. There views have always seemed waaaaay more radical.
 
Try reading Natan Sharansky or Lanny Davis sometime; they're actual talented people with logical, rational, and big ideas. Polemicists just make a really good living keeping folks like you pissed off and on message. You're smart, try thinking from an open mind for a change.

-z


I was going to let this pass, but I couldn't resist. First, Sharansky has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. Next, Lanny Davis is Lieberman's bitch, which makes him McCain's bitch by 1 degree of separation. With advice like his, Republicans would still be in control of Congress -- so logical and rational are not traits I readily ascribe to him.

"Polemicist" is just another word you like to throw around, like "far left" or other naughty things people who disagree with you are likely to be know as. You might as well say "fluffernutter" or "portmanteau."

"Bitch" is a word I like to throw around. It's meaning is clear.
 
Does McCain lie about other things?

Here's an article in The Hill about how some are now claiming that McCain was in talks with Daschle in 2001 to switch parties.

McCain says it never happened. Daschle says it did.

...
In interviews with The Hill this month, former Sen. Tom Daschle (D-S.D.) and ex-Rep. Tom Downey (D-N.Y.) said there were nearly two months of talks with the maverick lawmaker following an approach by John Weaver, McCain’s chief political strategist.
...
Daschle said that throughout April and May of 2001, he and McCain “had meetings and conversations on the floor and in his office, I think in mine as well, about how we would do it, what the conditions would be. We talked about committees and his seniority … [A lot of issues] were on the table.”

Absolutely not so, according to McCain. In a statement released by his campaign, McCain said, “As I said in 2001, I never considered leaving the Republican Party, period.”
...


There's not a lot of room for ambiguity or misunderstanding there. Is Daschle (and others involved) lying? Or is McCain lying?
 
hmmmmm...

Hard to say...

On one had it would have been a great move, as he would have had a large democratic support, but still the support of enough republicans to probably get majority...

On the other....isn't about 2001 when George W. invented Flip Flops or something like that?
 
Does McCain lie about other things?

Here's an article in The Hill about how some are now claiming that McCain was in talks with Daschle in 2001 to switch parties.
...
In interviews with The Hill this month, former Sen. Tom Daschle (D-S.D.) and ex-Rep. Tom Downey (D-N.Y.) said there were nearly two months of talks with the maverick lawmaker following an approach by John Weaver, McCain’s chief political strategist.
...
Daschle said that throughout April and May of 2001, he and McCain “had meetings and conversations on the floor and in his office, I think in mine as well, about how we would do it, what the conditions would be. We talked about committees and his seniority … [A lot of issues] were on the table.”

Absolutely not so, according to McCain. In a statement released by his campaign, McCain said, “As I said in 2001, I never considered leaving the Republican Party, period.”
...

McCain says it never happened. Daschle says it did.

There's not a lot of room for ambiguity or misunderstanding there. Is Daschle (and others involved) lying? Or is McCain lying?
I see at least one other possibility. Sinc McCain only says he didn't consider it, it leaves open the possibility that both are telling the truth if the talks did happen, but McCain wasn't serious about them and was just yanking Daschle's chain to guage how desperate the Dems were to get him on their side. Yeah, it's unlikely, I admit. More likely one of them is lying. They are both politicians, after all.
 
I meant it was irrelevant to argue whether it was the right thing to do or not since that you're in Iraq now, what's done is done. I meant no disrespect.
Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense, at least not in a society where people are punished for bad mistakes. You wouldn't tell a murderer, "Well, that was a horrible mistake, but what's done is done, so there's no sense talking about it any more." While it is true, we can't turn back, it is still absolutely correct to hold the feet to the fire of those who led us there. Personally, I'd like to see Bush transferred to the front line in Bagdhad. That seems like a just punishment. Ah well, I can dream, can't I?
 
Does McCain lie about other things?

Here's an article in The Hill about how some are now claiming that McCain was in talks with Daschle in 2001 to switch parties.

McCain says it never happened. Daschle says it did.

There's not a lot of room for ambiguity or misunderstanding there. Is Daschle (and others involved) lying? Or is McCain lying?

I had never heard this before but if it were true it does explain one little mystery that came out of the Kerry campaign. Somebody floated a trial balloon of a joint Kerry/McCain ticket. This seemed very strange at the time to me. Eventually, McCain said publicly that he was a Republican and a conservative and would have no interest in running with a Democrat. Maybe Kerry got the idea that McCain might consider it from Daschle and maybe the Kerry campaign just put it out there to try and improve Kerry's credentials amongst moderate Republicans. My own sense of this is that McCain is just lying. McCain, right now at least, seems to be less driven by ideology than his own internal quest for quirkiness and this little piece of quirkiness fits right in with the image I have of McCain.

It is interesting that right now the presidency is the Democrats to lose, but the front running Democrats seem like they could be amongst the most likely well known Democrats that could generate a Republican victory. But instead of being poised to take advantage of this weakness on the part of the Democrats, the Republican front runners all seem so flawed that it is looking like the Democrats might have a lock no matter who they run.

I don't think, I'm the only one to notice that. The rise of Thompson and the fact that Bloomberg is floating some trial balloons again makes me think that others have noticed it too.
 
"Abandon ye all hope who enter here..."

Yes...let no one offer hope in any way on the subject of Iraq. Let no one stand in the way of the Surrender Express lest he be savaged by the people lining up to profit from American defeat. Let the schadenfreude of the extreme left go unremarked upon. The end is near for ChimpyMcHitler and the neocons, yet we must continue to beat the drum of defeatism lest stability somehow break out bringing progress, freedom, and hope to Iraq....and irreparable political damage to the party of appeasement, surrender, and moral cowardice.

-z
You want to preach rather than comment on McCain's losing touch with reality? Go start a thread and don't derail this one.
 
Why does no one ever start threads about the clearly insane things that Ahmadinejad says, why does it always have to be about petty politics that only will further damage America's solidarity in the face of danger? Is bashing your own become a national sport?

It baffles me.

Go right ahead and post something about Ahmadinejad. I bet you get about four replies agreeing with you, a couple of snide remarks, and a bad pun or two.

There is not really anything noteworthy about a reasonable person making a reasonable statement, nothing surprising about some goofball saying something complety whacky. Hypocrisy, idiocy, and cluelessness are news.
 
No, he was wrong. People have been wrong before, people will be wrong again. What I'm objecting to is the zeal. Like a Pentecostalist babbling in tongues, the apparent quasi-religious ecstasy of the left at the prospect of "defeat" is simply disgusting IMHO. So McCain was wrong? Fine, but it doesn't exactly warrant an investigation by CNN.

Fair enough, z. Too bad that attitude is not shared on both sides of the aisle. Kerry made one silly slip of the tongue and the right roasted him for days over it. Let's just call that "the apparent quasi-religious ecstasy of the left right"

I'd hope as the race heats up and someone on the left says something wrong that you'll have the same forgiving attitude as you've demonstrated here.
 

Back
Top Bottom