John Kerry -- "Please permit pasta" (Gaza)

[quixotecoyote]

well I'm not going to help you since you refered to Israelis as filthy jooos.

Hi there, I'm handing out forum awards instead of being productive.

You've just won, "Most transparent evasion of the evening."

 

[moon1969]

Those colonial brits sure would have ruled Palestine better than the jews I mean look at all the nice things british colonialism did in Rhodesia, India and Pakistan. Irgun fought against the british colonialism.

 

[The Fool]

Hi there, I'm handing out forum awards instead of being productive.

You've just won, "Most transparent evasion of the evening."

I'd like to thank My manager, my family and of course My lovely ................


Anyway....do you imagine for one moment that beeps doesn't know the answer to his own question

 

[quixotecoyote]

I'd like to thank My manager, my family and of course My lovely ................


Anyway....do you imagine for one moment that beeps doesn't know the answer to his own question

Maybe he does, but I don't.

Remember, you may be arguing with Beeps, but you're performing for a wider audience.

I have no idea why Egypt is in such a hardass on the Gaza border. I can google examples of it, but the reasoning doesn't jump out. Maybe I'm too lazy. Then again, probably most of the people reading who aren't actively debating are that lazy too.

It's possible that we see BPSCG ask a reasonable question (even if used rhetorically) and see you refuse to answer based on protesting anti-semitism in his obvious mockery of anti-semitism. That looked silly.

 

[geni]

Maybe he does, but I don't.

Remember, you may be arguing with Beeps, but you're performing for a wider audience.

I have no idea why Egypt is in such a hardass on the Gaza border. I can google examples of it, but the reasoning doesn't jump out. Maybe I'm too lazy. Then again, probably most of the people reading who aren't actively debating are that lazy too.

1)Mubarak has enough trouble with his own islamic extremists he doesn't need to import any more.
2)Logistics of getting there isn't to good. Could be done but would be kinda pricey.
3)Isreal gets kinda sensative over certian types of egyptian activeity in the area such as improvements to transport links that would make moveing troops less of a hastle.
4)Isreal has made it clear it is prepared to attack the gaza side of the boarder if it doesn't like what is going on.
5)Egypt is trying to develop the area as a tourist attraction. UN aid convoys lower the tone of the area.


Basicaly short of building a new sea port by far the easyest way to get stuff into gaza is via isreal.

 

[gdnp]

Nope. Mubarak has enough problems with Muslim fundies in Egypt. He'd probably be delighted if Israel actually did what E.J. thinks they want to do.

Mubarak and Hamas are not friends.

Does Israel have troops inside Gaza on the Egyptian border that would prevent it? Last I heard they didn't.

Does Israel have troops inside Egypt on the Gaza border that would prevent it? Last I heard they didn't.

So how would they prevent it?

By bombing the hell out of the crossing, perhaps? Are you really seriously questioning whether Israel could shut down the crossing to Egypt if they chose to?

OTOH, trucks are easier to inspect.

Not unless you put Israeli inspectors inside Gaza or inside Egypt, neither of which Israel would seem to want to do. They would become prime targets.

FWIW, you'd think for all of Hamas's caterwauling about the eeeeeevil jooooz starving its people to death, they don't seem to have any trouble smuggling rockets and other weapons into the country to shoot at the jooooz. Maybe they should devote a little of that energy to smuggling food in, instead, hm?

I did not know you were an expert on how much difficulty Hamas has in smuggling rockets. If I had to guess, they have considerable difficulty. These tunnels can't be easy to build and maintain, especially with Israel bombing them. The entrances must also be concealed, especially on the Egyptian side, and I suspect officials must be bribed to look the other way. I would guess the volume of goods that they can ship through is quite limited. Thus they probably focus on relatively small, high value items. Although perhaps food comes in as well.

So I'm asking yet again - does Israel control what goes over the Egyptian border into Gaza? Yes or no?

Yes.

As far as the rest, both Israel and Egypt are keeping relief supplies from getting into Gaza, but only the filthy joooz get blamed. Typical.

As I said, neither Israel nor Egypt particularly wish to aid Hamas. Israel, as the occupying power, has a responsibility for the civilian population. Egypt is not the occupying power. They do not blockade Gaza's coast, therefore they do not hold legal responsibility for the Gaza residents.

BTW, during the recent Israeli incursion, every vehicle that crossed through the Egyptian crossing was cleared first with the Israelis. This was mentioned in several news reports, but not well publicized, I suspect because the Egyptians did not wish to appear the Israeli's lap dog. It doesn't help their street cred.

 

[plumjam]

I saw a similar report from Ragu Omar, whose sources are usually impeccable.

(etc...)

 

[Dr Adequate]

I saw a similar report from Ragu Omar, whose sources are usually impeccable.

(etc...)

You think this situation is funny?

It's pasta joke.

 

[FireGarden]

I've been asking, but nobody seems to want to explain to me. If Israel won't open the border with blatantly hostile Gaza (and I don't blame them), why doesn't Gaza get relief supplies over the border it shares with Egypt?

I was asking kinda snidely, I'll admit, but nobody has bothered to answer.

Anyone? Bueller?

I have criticised Egypt a few times on this forum. There were protests outside Egyptian embassies during the war.

The reason Egypt gives for keeping the border closed is that the agreement they signed doesn't allow them to open the border without monitors from the EU and PA.

That doesn't quite explain shooting at people fleeing a warzone, which is what Egyptians soldiers did back in December.

Egypt is under quite a bit of pressure to ease up on Gaza. But there is also American money to consider.


Wiki has an article on the Rafah crossing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing


Egypt's agreements with Israel also specify the number of troops Egypt is allowed to deploy along the border. Egypt is very resistant to the idea of international troops doing a job its own soldiers could do. I think there was an agreement to increase the number of troops Egypt could deploy. But, in a quick search, I've only been able to find this article:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958407.html


As for what is smuggled in... Everything. Including cattle:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1030242.html

 

[FireGarden]

I suspect Israel would like nothing better than to seal their border with Gaza permanently and dump the territory back on the Egyptians. The Egyptians do not seem particularly interested in taking responsibility for cleaning up the mess that the Palestinians and Israelis have made. Do you blame them?

Back when Hamas broke through the border with Egypt, someone had this idea:
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/947858.html

A top Egyptian official said Thursday that Egypt's border with Gaza would go back to normal, and strongly rejected the idea - floated by Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai - that Israel might relinquish all responsibility for the troubled Gaza Strip.

 

[webfusion]

why? (limit the amount of cargo transferred into Gaza)

The entire issue is very convoluted.

1. Cpl. Gilad Shalit: His freedom is now being negotiated, and the Israeli gov't. is attempting to link that with the Gaza crossings being opened fully.

2. Israel's representative who is dealing with the crossings and a 'cease-fire' (tadiyyeh)is/was/is Amos Gilad -- who was embroiled in a controversy over the past few days and was sacked, and then re-instated. Amos Gilad got upset that his boss (Ehud Olmert) had decided to merge two distinctly seperate negotiations (namely, the crossings and the tadiyyeh, and the other situation of Cpl. Shalit) into one ball of wax. That brouhaha is still in flux. If you are interested in the nuances, here's the latest ---
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067149.html

3. Rockets have still periodically been launched at Israeli towns since the end of Operation Cast Lead. Israel sees no value in 'rewarding' the HAMAS with pasta dinners, while violence such as this continues.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067149.html
After these barrages against Israel, the IAF flies more missions over the Gaza/Egypt border and drops 500-pounders.

 

[FireGarden]

2. Israel's representative who is dealing with the crossings and a 'cease-fire' (tadiyyeh)is/was/is Amos Gilad -- who was embroiled in a controversy over the past few days and was sacked, and then re-instated. Amos Gilad got upset that his boss (Ehud Olmert) had decided to merge two distinctly seperate negotiations (namely, the crossings and the tadiyyeh, and the other situation of Cpl. Shalit) into one ball of wax. That brouhaha is still in flux. If you are interested in the nuances, here's the latest ---
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067149.html

Did you mean to post this link?:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067220.html

 

[webfusion]

Thanks, fireGarden, glad someone's paying attention.

I'll see your link and raise it a linky:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067055.html
"pasta is not a weapon" (editorial)

 

[The Fool]

Maybe he does, but I don't.

Remember, you may be arguing with Beeps, but you're performing for a wider audience.

I have no idea why Egypt is in such a hardass on the Gaza border. I can google examples of it, but the reasoning doesn't jump out. Maybe I'm too lazy. Then again, probably most of the people reading who aren't actively debating are that lazy too.

It's possible that we see BPSCG ask a reasonable question (even if used rhetorically) and see you refuse to answer based on protesting anti-semitism in his obvious mockery of anti-semitism. That looked silly.

My humble apologies for the lost period of your life when you were reading my silly post.

 

[Marc39]

If Israel won't open the border with blatantly hostile Gaza (and I don't blame them), why doesn't Gaza get relief supplies over the border it shares with Egypt?

Because the Egyptians have steadfastly maintained tightly sealed border closures against the Gazans, except when under extreme duress to open them occasionally. Hamas, the terrorist governing body of Gaza, is descended from the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, which is banned in Egypt for attempting to overthrow Cairo’s secular government, and, so, Hamas is too toxic for the Egyptians, even at the expense of the suffering of their Arab brethren.

 

[gdnp]

Because the Egyptians have steadfastly maintained tightly sealed border closures against the Gazans, except when under extreme duress to open them occasionally. Hamas, the terrorist governing body of Gaza, is descended from the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, which is banned in Egypt for attempting to overthrow Cairo’s secular government, and, so, Hamas is too toxic for the Egyptians, even at the expense of the suffering of their Arab brethren.

Finally, something we agree on. Although I would add that Israel still maintains de facto control over the crossing into Egypt. Nothing goes across without Israeli approval.

 

[Marc39]

Finally, something we agree on. Although I would add that Israel still maintains de facto control over the crossing into Egypt. Nothing goes across without Israeli approval.

The Egyptians do not have to have their arms twisted to prevent the Palestinians from entering. Nor, the Jordanians. Nor, the Lebanese. Get the picture?

 

[gdnp]

The Egyptians do not have to have their arms twisted to prevent the Palestinians from entering. Nor, the Jordanians. Nor, the Lebanese. Get the picture?

I think a more relevant statement would be that the Egyptians don't need to have their arms twisted much to support the Israeli blockade. They have no love for Hamas.

 

[Marc39]

I think a more relevant statement would be that the Egyptians don't need to have their arms twisted much to support the Israeli blockade. They have no love for Hamas.

More broadly, the Egyptians have no love for the Palestinians, in general. In stark contrast, prior the Arafat intifadas, Israel was the Palestinians' largest trading partner, representing about 80% of their trade. Now, the Palestinians have bupkis and Suha Arafat is living a life of luxury with Yasir's ill-gotten $billions.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Dash it all! Somebody's gone and leaked Project Great Seitan: My evil scheme to conquer the world using gluten-based explosives.