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John Gray

You think theology is a serious study?

You have any evidence that it isn't?

If Dawkins is going to discuss religion as set of putatively true beliefs, his professed ignorance of theology is inexcusable and his celebration thereof deplorable. For someone who promotes himself on his intellectual capacity, Dawkins spends a suprising amount of time engaing in rabid anti-intellectualism.
 
You have any evidence that it isn't?
If Dawkins is going to discuss religion as set of putatively true beliefs, his professed ignorance of theology is inexcusable and his celebration thereof deplorable. For someone who promotes himself on his intellectual capacity, Dawkins spends a suprising amount of time engaing in rabid anti-intellectualism.

Nice try on the burden of proof reversal play.


Once you determine there are no UFOs how much ufology do you need?
 
Once you determine there are no UFOs how much ufology do you need?

If you want to talk about UFO believers and what they're saying about the cases and sightings they focus on, you need to know everything you can about ufology.

The best UFO skeptics are those that are well-versed in what ufologists are saying and writing.
 
Nice try on the burden of proof reversal play.

Do you even know what a "burden of proof" is?

You were the one who implied that theology isn't a serious field of study; the onus is upon you to present evidence of your insinuation.

Once you determine there are no UFOs how much ufology do you need?

Dawkins portrays himself as almost certain of the non-existence of God, so one would thinthink that he make a modicum of effort to avail himself of the argument of God's existence.
 
Yes, he is kind of an idiot that way.

Is fairology a serious subject? Unicornology? Nessielogy?

He hasn't even read one. Or even the Qu'ran, for that matter.

Have you read Mein Kampf or Das Kapital (in German, of course)? If not, do you feel it proper for you to discuss those ideologies?

If I were to go up to him and say "I've never read a book about evolution, not even Darwin's Origin of Species, and in fact reject the whole study of biology as not a serious subject", and then start ranting about and criticizing evolution, how much consideration do you think he'd give to my opinions on the matter?

The Origin of Species is mostly interesting for historical reasons today. If you want a good understanding of evolution it is better to consult a more up to date book.

And biology studies life, which obviously exists. Theology is the sudy of gods, beings that don't exist.

The study of religion is a valid area of study, bt it should be done scientifically.
 
I think that no matter whether you're from Donegal, Sligo, or Trew whether Muslim, Christian or Jew, just take a stump of the rare of old hump and the rare old mountain dew!

 
Is fairology a serious subject? Unicornology? Nessielogy?

They can be, depending on reason and context. However, they aren't at all comparable to the study of religion in general or theology in particular.

The vast majority of people on the planet don't make belief in the Loch Ness Monster a central feature of their lives, after all.

Have you read Mein Kampf or Das Kapital (in German, of course)? If not, do you feel it proper for you to discuss those ideologies?

I've read both in translation, and Mein Kampf in the original back when my German was stronger. I don't feel I know enough about Marxism to comment robustly, but I am one of the most active posters in the Holocaust Denial thread here (arguing against the Deniers, of course), and in order to do so I've not only read social and military history of the period and the historiography of the Holocaust, but also as much of the material actually written by Deniers as I can get my hands on.

It's proven quite useful, allowing me to do things like instantly recognize an argument presented by a Denier purportedly debunking a captured Nazi document regarding gas vans as being lifted wholesale from Santiago Alvarez's The Gas Vans: A Critical Examination.

This I why I also feel that it's vitally important for even atheists to read what theists (of whatever religion) are writing, saying, and arguing, including (and especially) works of theology.

The study of religion is a valid area of study, bt it should be done scientifically.

Yes. And this is where Dawkins fails miserably.
 
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...... The study of religion is a valid area of study, but it should be done scientifically.

.... Yes....


Would love to see experimental designs for this one and not see any fails...

Could either of you come up with a scientific way of doing this?

What would be the opening theory/ies, and subsequent experiments to try and validate it/them?

"The world was created by a god in 7, 6, 8, n days"

"A man walked on water and also fed 5000 people with fish and bread"

"An illiterate Arab spoke to God via angels"

"A soon to be fat guy sat under a tree and became enlightened"

"A monster that is based on pasta created the universe"
 
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Once you determine there are no UFOs how much ufology do you need?

Ever read "The Art of War"? Or do any martial arts of any kind? In order to do...well, pretty much anything effectively under conditions where there is opposition one must understand that opposition. If you don't, you're going to be talking gibberish as far as the people you're talking to are concerned.

Belgian thought said:
Would love to see experimental designs for this one and not see any fails..
My least-favorite myth about science: that all science requires experimentation. This actually damages scientific understanding, and helps the pseudoscientists by creating a false view of what science is.

There are a few examples of religious stories that can be tested without experimentation (I'm going to stick mostly with the Christ cults, because that's what I know). A rigorous archaeological analysis of Roman records around the time Christ allegedly lived will show if there were any changes in tax law requiring folks to return to the "cities of their fathers". It's almost certainly not true, but it IS testable--through what amounts to an archive search. If someone can pin down a general location for Sodom and Gamora we can look for evidence of bolide impacts or atmospheric detonations. We can look for evidence of massive waves in the Red Sea (I've seen numerous talks where such evidence was used for paleoseismic analysis, so the techniques are well-vetted and widely accepted in the scientific community).

These are all almost certainly going to disprove the stories, but scientific proof of ancient myths HAS surfaced in the past. For example, there's Troy. and the burial chamber under the Sphinx in Egypt. Mom loves Egyptian archaeology, so we got to watch them open that chamber up. Very exciting.

Secondly, religions can be examined as a sociological phenomenon. A bit softer a science than I usually like to work with, but still a science none the less. I'd love to hear how we can do a serious sociological study of a group without understanding what they actually believe.

Humes fork said:
Have you read Mein Kampf or Das Kapital (in German, of course)? If not, do you feel it proper for you to discuss those ideologies?
Not Mein Kampf, but I did read The Communist Manifesto before I started commenting on Communism (and about four years before I encountered Ayn Rand). Also, I've never pretended that understanding those ideologies was irrelevant to discussing them. You don't need to read the Bible in order to understand Catholicism, after all; and in fact only reading the Bible isn't sufficient (Catholics believe that the Bible is only one source of God's word, after all). If you can gain the understanding of what the group is saying without reading their holy book (if they have one) that's perfectly acceptable under by any standard. It's the understanding that's the issue, not the book.

tsig said:
How can the study of a non existent being be serious?
I have a book on the taxonomy of dragons, and have a friend who's created a cladogram of My Little Pony characters. I've seen published cladograms of the monsters in "Where the Wild Things Are". Then there's the papers dealing with the phylogeny, taxonomy, and cladistics of a group of entirely fictional creatures created specifically for the purpose of testing taxonomy, phylogeny, and cladistics (I really need to find that again; I've always wanted to make a few stuffed animal versions, and I have a kid on the way so I have something of a time limit). Astrobiology is the rigorous study of life that we can't detect, know nothing about, and can't even prove exists. And that's not getting into the theoretical physics where the concept of "exist" and "real" break down. Then there's the long and proud history of biological and paleontological speculation about creatures that were later determined to not exist. The International Code of Zoological Nomenclature actually includes requirements for addressing valid names for non-existent species.

If gods don't exist, it's hardly a serious obstacle to rigorous analysis. Science has, to put it bluntly, been there and done that.
 
Ever read "The Art of War"? Or do any martial arts of any kind? In order to do...well, pretty much anything effectively under conditions where there is opposition one must understand that opposition. If you don't, you're going to be talking gibberish as far as the people you're talking to are concerned.
My least-favorite myth about science: that all science requires experimentation. This actually damages scientific understanding, and helps the pseudoscientists by creating a false view of what science is.

There are a few examples of religious stories that can be tested without experimentation (I'm going to stick mostly with the Christ cults, because that's what I know). A rigorous archaeological analysis of Roman records around the time Christ allegedly lived will show if there were any changes in tax law requiring folks to return to the "cities of their fathers". It's almost certainly not true, but it IS testable--through what amounts to an archive search. If someone can pin down a general location for Sodom and Gamora we can look for evidence of bolide impacts or atmospheric detonations. We can look for evidence of massive waves in the Red Sea (I've seen numerous talks where such evidence was used for paleoseismic analysis, so the techniques are well-vetted and widely accepted in the scientific community).

These are all almost certainly going to disprove the stories, but scientific proof of ancient myths HAS surfaced in the past. For example, there's Troy. and the burial chamber under the Sphinx in Egypt. Mom loves Egyptian archaeology, so we got to watch them open that chamber up. Very exciting.

Secondly, religions can be examined as a sociological phenomenon. A bit softer a science than I usually like to work with, but still a science none the less. I'd love to hear how we can do a serious sociological study of a group without understanding what they actually believe.

Not Mein Kampf, but I did read The Communist Manifesto before I started commenting on Communism (and about four years before I encountered Ayn Rand). Also, I've never pretended that understanding those ideologies was irrelevant to discussing them. You don't need to read the Bible in order to understand Catholicism, after all; and in fact only reading the Bible isn't sufficient (Catholics believe that the Bible is only one source of God's word, after all). If you can gain the understanding of what the group is saying without reading their holy book (if they have one) that's perfectly acceptable under by any standard. It's the understanding that's the issue, not the book.

I have a book on the taxonomy of dragons, and have a friend who's created a cladogram of My Little Pony characters. I've seen published cladograms of the monsters in "Where the Wild Things Are". Then there's the papers dealing with the phylogeny, taxonomy, and cladistics of a group of entirely fictional creatures created specifically for the purpose of testing taxonomy, phylogeny, and cladistics (I really need to find that again; I've always wanted to make a few stuffed animal versions, and I have a kid on the way so I have something of a time limit). Astrobiology is the rigorous study of life that we can't detect, know nothing about, and can't even prove exists. And that's not getting into the theoretical physics where the concept of "exist" and "real" break down. Then there's the long and proud history of biological and paleontological speculation about creatures that were later determined to not exist. The International Code of Zoological Nomenclature actually includes requirements for addressing valid names for non-existent species.

If gods don't exist, it's hardly a serious obstacle to rigorous analysis. Science has, to put it bluntly, been there and done that.

So I need a degree in gibberish to talk it properly? You talk like these faith spaced individuals have some sort of rational out look, they don't, they believe in invisible beings. I see no need to understand the eating habits of ghosts to say they don't exist nor do I see any need to grasp the ineffable nature of god to reject the idea.
 
Ever read "The Art of War"? Or do any martial arts of any kind? In order to do...well, pretty much anything effectively under conditions where there is opposition one must understand that opposition. If you don't, you're going to be talking gibberish as far as the people you're talking to are concerned.

My least-favorite myth about science: that all science requires experimentation. This actually damages scientific understanding, and helps the pseudoscientists by creating a false view of what science is.

There are a few examples of religious stories that can be tested without experimentation (I'm going to stick mostly with the Christ cults, because that's what I know). A rigorous archaeological analysis of Roman records around the time Christ allegedly lived will show if there were any changes in tax law requiring folks to return to the "cities of their fathers". It's almost certainly not true, but it IS testable--through what amounts to an archive search. If someone can pin down a general location for Sodom and Gamora we can look for evidence of bolide impacts or atmospheric detonations. We can look for evidence of massive waves in the Red Sea (I've seen numerous talks where such evidence was used for paleoseismic analysis, so the techniques are well-vetted and widely accepted in the scientific community).

These are all almost certainly going to disprove the stories, but scientific proof of ancient myths HAS surfaced in the past. For example, there's Troy. and the burial chamber under the Sphinx in Egypt. Mom loves Egyptian archaeology, so we got to watch them open that chamber up. Very exciting.

Secondly, religions can be examined as a sociological phenomenon. A bit softer a science than I usually like to work with, but still a science none the less. I'd love to hear how we can do a serious sociological study of a group without understanding what they actually believe.

Not Mein Kampf, but I did read The Communist Manifesto before I started commenting on Communism (and about four years before I encountered Ayn Rand). Also, I've never pretended that understanding those ideologies was irrelevant to discussing them. You don't need to read the Bible in order to understand Catholicism, after all; and in fact only reading the Bible isn't sufficient (Catholics believe that the Bible is only one source of God's word, after all). If you can gain the understanding of what the group is saying without reading their holy book (if they have one) that's perfectly acceptable under by any standard. It's the understanding that's the issue, not the book.

I have a book on the taxonomy of dragons, and have a friend who's created a cladogram of My Little Pony characters. I've seen published cladograms of the monsters in "Where the Wild Things Are". Then there's the papers dealing with the phylogeny, taxonomy, and cladistics of a group of entirely fictional creatures created specifically for the purpose of testing taxonomy, phylogeny, and cladistics (I really need to find that again; I've always wanted to make a few stuffed animal versions, and I have a kid on the way so I have something of a time limit). Astrobiology is the rigorous study of life that we can't detect, know nothing about, and can't even prove exists. And that's not getting into the theoretical physics where the concept of "exist" and "real" break down. Then there's the long and proud history of biological and paleontological speculation about creatures that were later determined to not exist. The International Code of Zoological Nomenclature actually includes requirements for addressing valid names for non-existent species.

If gods don't exist, it's hardly a serious obstacle to rigorous analysis. Science has, to put it bluntly, been there and done that.

IOW unless I take the believers delusions as serious as they do I can't call them delusions.
 
tsig said:
So I need a degree in gibberish to talk it properly?
Did the United States need a degree in German tactics in WWI in order to oppose them?

You talk like these faith spaced individuals have some sort of rational out look,
No, not at all. This is your projection at best. All I'm arguing is that the people you're arguing against actually believe what they say. It's emotionally satisfying to say that they are completely irrational and not worth understanding, but in terms of actually having any impact whatever it's self-defeating. You don't know what they think, so you don't know what arguments will be effective.

Second, yeah, I do think that they are more rational than many here think. Logic is GIGO; many of my disagreements with theists aren't about logical errors, but rather about facts and interpretations of facts. I've read enough Aquinus and St. Benedict to understand that they were extremely rational folks, simply operating under a very different paradigm than I do. This isn't dramatically different (in terms of what the disagreement is; the degree of disagreement is far greater) than my disagreement with my boss--he's a gradualist, I'm a neocatastraphist.

I see no need to understand the eating habits of ghosts to say they don't exist nor do I see any need to grasp the ineffable nature of god to reject the idea.
Nor do I say you need to. The reasons YOU reject gods are, however, quite irrelevant to what will convince OTHERS--and I'm not even talking about that, really. I'm talking about how to make sure your statements are comprehensible to others.

My argument is very, very simple. It's obvious that not everyone agrees with you. If you wish to have a meaningful conversation with them, you need to accept that. If you wish to convince them of anything, you at least need to understand their perspective. If you're unwilling to do either, you end up making a lot of stupid statements that are, to the theists, as uneducated and moronic as the statements of Creationists are to scientists. This doesn't help the cause of rationality, and actually hurts it by providing evidence that we don't know what we're talking about.

So you have to ask yourself: Why are you involved in these conversations? If it's to actually have a positive impact, you need to understand where the other side is coming from. If you have no interest in that, you have to accept that the other side will dismiss you out of hand as an ignorant jerk.
 
IOW unless I take the believers delusions as serious as they do I can't call them delusions.

That's not even close to what I said. I said that if you want to have any positive impact you need to understand what your opposition thinks. This is an idea that they understood several thousand years ago, and which still holds true.
 
Did the United States need a degree in German tactics in WWI in order to oppose them?
No, not at all. This is your projection at best. All I'm arguing is that the people you're arguing against actually believe what they say. It's emotionally satisfying to say that they are completely irrational and not worth understanding, but in terms of actually having any impact whatever it's self-defeating. You don't know what they think, so you don't know what arguments will be effective.

Second, yeah, I do think that they are more rational than many here think. Logic is GIGO; many of my disagreements with theists aren't about logical errors, but rather about facts and interpretations of facts. I've read enough Aquinus and St. Benedict to understand that they were extremely rational folks, simply operating under a very different paradigm than I do. This isn't dramatically different (in terms of what the disagreement is; the degree of disagreement is far greater) than my disagreement with my boss--he's a gradualist, I'm a neocatastraphist.

Nor do I say you need to. The reasons YOU reject gods are, however, quite irrelevant to what will convince OTHERS--and I'm not even talking about that, really. I'm talking about how to make sure your statements are comprehensible to others.

My argument is very, very simple. It's obvious that not everyone agrees with you. If you wish to have a meaningful conversation with them, you need to accept that. If you wish to convince them of anything, you at least need to understand their perspective. If you're unwilling to do either, you end up making a lot of stupid statements that are, to the theists, as uneducated and moronic as the statements of Creationists are to scientists. This doesn't help the cause of rationality, and actually hurts it by providing evidence that we don't know what we're talking about.

So you have to ask yourself: Why are you involved in these conversations? If it's to actually have a positive impact, you need to understand where the other side is coming from. If you have no interest in that, you have to accept that the other side will dismiss you out of hand as an ignorant jerk.

No, they needed superior firepower.

No one can know what they're talking about when they're talking about things that don't exist. By pandering to their delusions you help them think there's something there.

As soon as you say god doesn't exist you will be called an ignorant jerk.
 
That's not even close to what I said. I said that if you want to have any positive impact you need to understand what your opposition thinks. This is an idea that they understood several thousand years ago, and which still holds true.

They think god exists, I don't. Do we have to discuss the shade of green of the dragon in my garage before you dismiss it?
 
They think god exists, I don't. Do we have to discuss the shade of green of the dragon in my garage before you dismiss it?

Again, what is your purpose in this discussion? If it's "Look at those morons; I'm so much better than them!" than no, the facts of their belief is irrelevant. Such masturbatory fantasies are of no use to anyone, however, and PZ Myers demonstrates what happens when you over-indulge is such activity. If, however, you want to have any real impact, you need to understand where the other side is coming from.

No, they needed superior firepower.
No.

No one can know what they're talking about when they're talking about things that don't exist.
It is not, however, impossible to know WHAT THOSE PEOPLE SAY. If you're unwilling to do even the most basic research into what your opposition says, you're no better than Jabba.

By pandering to their delusions you help them think there's something there.
In what way is taking someone seriously pandering to them? In what way is accepting that THEY accept the ideas pandering? In what way is actually making my arguments something that they can understand pandering? In what way is having an informed opinion on a topic pandering?

Acknowledging that my opponent is using a polearm in no way admits defeat in a tournament. Similarly, actually knowing what theists say in no way means I accept their arguments. It means that I'm accepting reality for what it is, rather than what I want it to be, and I'm thus able to respond accordingly.

I get that you hate religion. But that's no excuse for poor scholarship, and arrogantly poor scholarship is a cancer that I have no interest in spreading.

As soon as you say god doesn't exist you will be called an ignorant jerk.
By some, yes. That is no excuse for calling all theists ignorant jerks for the crime of believing they do.

I also notice that you're taking isolated chunks of my posts and responding to them, without bothering to understand the context of the quotes. Please stop doing that.
 

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