John Edward - psychic or what?

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The hotel had bad internet which rarely worked at all. Cell phones didn't work anywhere - not in the hotel, or at the shoot site. You could occasionally get a signal when in the car travelling in between.

But presumably it has a land line or two and Oliver has an office he can phone and ask to look things up for him.

My web site, if you dig around, has information on my uncle. You have to at least sort of know what you're looking for, or wade through around a hundred articles.

No you don't. All you need to do is a google domain search for the word "uncle".

[Edit]And having a quick poke around your site reveals that my screenname is neither as clever nor as original as I thought it was. Sest luvvie.[/edit]

On the day that I told Oliver I wanted a reading, I did it from the actual shooting location. We did not, thereafter, leave that location - meaning that there was no cell service or internet from the time I asked until the time he gave the reading.

The make-up girl had almost certainly told him and he'd already done his research.

Now what would be really interesting is if I could come up with the answers to those unverifiables, and determine if they were correct. If they were, I may have to reassess my belief structure.

Why? None of the unverifiables are really that impressive:

5) Oliver said that my uncle had tattoos.

If he was in the Navy, then him having tattoos is quite likely, even from back when they were frowned upon and not nearly as common or accepted as they are now.

6) Oliver said my uncle had gastrointestinal issues.

A very, very common ailment. Vaguely worded, too.

9) Oliver said that my uncle is dead.

Anyone who's been missing for a number of years, it's a fair bet that they're dead.

10) Oliver said that the body is in the woods.

As has been said in this thread, that's one of the most likely places for it to be.

11) Oliver said that my uncle shot himself.

Again, suicide for someone who's gone missing isn't unusual. Self-inflicted gun wounds are a common form of suicide in America.

If you could verify all of them and they were all true, then I agree that it would be a little more unlikely to be a mundane explanation, but it's not like it would actually be unlikely. Just a few good guesses. I probably wouldn't have guessed suicide (although I might have done), but I'd definitely have guessed the rest if I were trying to impress you.

 

[RemieV]

But presumably it has a land line or two and Oliver has an office he can phone and ask to look things up for him.



No you don't. All you need to do is a google domain search for the word "uncle".

[Edit]And having a quick poke around your site reveals that my screenname is neither as clever nor as original as I thought it was. Sest luvvie.[/edit]



The make-up girl had almost certainly told him and he'd already done his research.



Why? None of the unverifiables are really that impressive:



If he was in the Navy, then him having tattoos is quite likely, even from back when they were frowned upon and not nearly as common or accepted as they are now.



A very, very common ailment. Vaguely worded, too.



Anyone who's been missing for a number of years, it's a fair bet that they're dead.



As has been said in this thread, that's one of the most likely places for it to be.



Again, suicide for someone who's gone missing isn't unusual. Self-inflicted gun wounds are a common form of suicide in America.

If you could verify all of them and they were all true, then I agree that it would be a little more unlikely to be a mundane explanation, but it's not like it would actually be unlikely. Just a few good guesses. I probably wouldn't have guessed suicide (although I might have done), but I'd definitely have guessed the rest if I were trying to impress you.

I'm still feeling rather bemused.

I didn't say that these were unlikely scenarios. I didn't say I thought he achieved the information through paranormal means. In fact, much of the response to this thread seems to have taken an odd turn wherein I am the believer.

So, I'm not sure what else I can say in response to posts that seem to make it that way. You have my credentials, you have my statements about what I am attempting to accomplish. I will, from this point forward, attempt to only respond to people who have read the thread and see what I'm saying/doing. Constantly defending myself by flashing my Real Live Skeptic card is becoming tiresome.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Real Live Skeptic card

They HAVE those?!?

ETA: Probably new, skimmed the thread, and don't know you. Furthermore, probably also scanned some of this subforum and assumed that if you aren't referring to psychics in highly insulting manner or Odin forbid, trying to be impartial and fair towards something, that you aren't a True Skeptic^TM.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'm still feeling rather bemused.

I didn't say that these were unlikely scenarios. I didn't say I thought he achieved the information through paranormal means. In fact, much of the response to this thread seems to have taken an odd turn wherein I am the believer.

So, I'm not sure what else I can say in response to posts that seem to make it that way. You have my credentials, you have my statements about what I am attempting to accomplish. I will, from this point forward, attempt to only respond to people who have read the thread and see what I'm saying/doing. Constantly defending myself by flashing my Real Live Skeptic card is becoming tiresome.

Now I'm feeling rather bemused as to what in my post (or any of my posts) you thought was implying that, let alone what you think I said that you feel like you have to defend yourself from. I thought you were asking for suggestions for mechanisms as to how these feats were accomplished. That's what I've tried to provide. No more, no less.

 

[Robin]

He pointed toward the table behind me, where Liam was sitting, and said that he was getting the name 'Joshua'. I am again using a fake name of the same level of popularity. And I don't mean that he said he was getting a 'j' or the name 'Josh' or the feeling of a male presence. I mean that John Edward pointed at the table where Liam was sitting and said he was getting the name Joshua.

So Liam stood up. One of the ushers brought him a microphone so that he could communicate with Edward. Edward again said that he had gotten the name 'Joshua', and then said that there was something weird about it, because he had the sensation that the name was LIAM's. Then Edward paused for a moment. Liam had not said anything at this time. Edward said that, though Liam's name was Joshua, he had not introduced himself that way to the rest of his table. Edward then asked Joshua to hand the microphone over to someone else at the table, and then asked that person what Joshua had introduced himself as. The person said, "Liam."

Edward then asked Joshua to take out his driver's license and show it to everyone else at the table. The driver's license said that his name was Joshua Liam Smith.

Does it strike anybody else how staged this sounds? It is like a magician's act.

First he says that he has the sensation that Joshua is his name.

Then he asks him to hand the microphone to the others on table to ask how he has introduced himself

Then he asks him to take out his driver's licence and show it to everyone.

There might be many reasons why someone would be known by another name. He might have changed his name by deed poll, or he might write under a pseudonymn for some newsletter, or it might be something that close friends call him.

But he doesn't say (as is his usual style) something like "can you explain that?", or "do you also go by that name?", or "is that your middle name?".

He goes straight for the driver's licence.

 

[Robert Oz]

He goes straight for the driver's licence.

Precisely. I think going straight for the license is the key to this one. Someone, whether at Liam's table or around Liam at some point prior to or during the show, saw his license long enough to read his full name.

 

[ynot]

Precisely. I think going straight for the license is the key to this one. Someone, whether at Liam's table or around Liam at some point prior to or during the show, saw his license long enough to read his full name.

Obviously RemieV picked Liam’s pocket while they were chatting in the queue and secretly gave the information to her secret lover John Edward. Why do you think she goes to so many of his shows? There’s also a “thing” going on with John Oliver in the back seat of dark cars as well. Seems to be a “John” fetish. Sorry about that Scrut.

 

[Beth]

Constantly defending myself by flashing my Real Live Skeptic card is becoming tiresome.

At least you have one! Pity those who don't and post here looking for rational explanations.

 

[Robin]

We went inside, and Liam took his seat, and I took mine. I could see him from where I was sitting if I turned around. I should add - I was attending the show under a false name, and I was costumed in such a way that I was not recognizable as me. I had a fake backstory that I responded with any time anyone asked me what brought me to the show.

What this tells me is that "Emily" was asked more than once for her fake backstory.

So presumably it is not unlikely that Liam (and others in the audience) were asked for their real backstory.

It is likely that most of the audience gave real names. We know that at least one member of the audience was able to quite easily make a secret recording of the proceedings.

So backstage are his researchers working away on the internet armed with this information and whatever information sources are available (such as mailing lists sold).

Possibly they have at least one camera pointed at the audience.

The audience have been asked by minglers where they are from and what brought them here and they go through all this information either drawing blanks or finding nothing useful.

But they find something about a Liam from this guy's home town that could be him - but could this Liam be the Joshua Liam they have found out about.

So Edwards stands in front of the table and says "Joshua" and Liam stands up. Bingo!

So this may not be the way it happened - it could be that someone saw his driver's licence, and there has been no reason given why he could not be a plant. Why should a plant not be from out of town? Why would a plant not use their real name? Why wouldn't a plant buy a ticket with cash and say that they attended on the spur of the moment?

Or it could be that Edwards, on the spur of the moment tried out the name "Joshua" to a particular section of the audience and that when Liam stood up and gave his name there might have been a slight hesitation in the way that he answered that suggested to Edwards that he might also go by the name Joshua. His subsequent reactions might have added to this suspicion.

A risk, then, to ask for his driver's licence but we don't know how often some stunt like this has fallen flat in the past.

And it could be something we haven't thought of yet - that is the way most good tricks work. The levitating lady looks great, but you slap your face and say "why didn't I think of that - it is so obvious" when you find out how it is done.

The point is there are a number of ways this scenario could have come about without resorting to the explanation of psychic powers.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Precisely. I think going straight for the license is the key to this one. Someone, whether at Liam's table or around Liam at some point prior to or during the show, saw his license long enough to read his full name.

I think the bar scenario (or something similar) is far more likely. Who pulls their license out? I do at the airport, and did about 2 months ago on the side of the highway (damn cop), but other than that, my license probably only leaves my pocket less than 10 times a year. Remember, even if he had his wallet open at some point, like when checking in, the person looking over his shoulder would first have to know that he was going to the show at some point in the future.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Obviously RemieV picked Liam’s pocket while they were chatting in the queue and secretly gave the information to her secret lover John Edward. Why do you think she goes to so many of his shows? There’s also a “thing” going on with John Oliver in the back seat of dark cars as well. Seems to be a “John” fetish. Sorry about that Scrut.

No. That's not true! You're just saying that because you are jealous! She says I am the one! (but the kid is not my son)

 

[mikeyx]

No. That's not true! You're just saying that because you are jealous! She says I am the one! (but the kid is not my son)

Sylvia Browne is the bestest psychic evar!

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Yup. This thread has been utterly Scrutinized.

 

[ynot]

Sylvia Browne is the bestest psychic evar!

Joke of the week either way you read it.

 

[ynot]

Given the seating was predetermined the only "difficult" part of the trick was knowing Liam’s first and second names and that he used his first. A reasonably uncommon thing that makes the trick more “amazing” than just giving a person’s first and second name. So how and where could Edward have gotten this information from?

Let’s accept RemieV’s conclusion/preference that Liam wasn’t a plant.

I can imagine several instances where Liam may have had to disclose his full name and address. The hire of a rental car for instance. A copy of the rental agreement with these details would have been in the rental car. Perhaps someone from valet parking got the details from there and gave them to Edward.

The thing is we just don’t know with any confidence that Liam didn’t give his details directly to one of Edward’s staff for some unknown reason before the show. Believers like Liam are notoriously bad at remembering and being aware that they do such things. He sound like a “chatty” guy given everyone at the table knew him by name.

But it wasn’t just the name trick that Edward was unusually good at on the night . . .

Edward then did a reading for Liam. And it was a good reading - really good. At the very least, an excellent exercise in cold reading. But no amount of cold reading would yield something like that.

If we knew what the other “stuff” of the reading was we may be able to better decipher how the overall trick was done and whether Liam had any part in it.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Before I read anyone else's comments I'm going to reply just to Alison's first post.

You said that YOU didn't talk to anyone but Liam. What did that have to do with anything? Who knows how many people Liam might have talked to. If you are using a credit card at a casino/hotel then it would have your full legal name on it. Just cause he paid cash does not mean that he wasn't recognized from somewhere else when he was not paying cash.

Also possible that someone knew him (yes even from out of town you run into people) and feed that info to Edward.

What was the result of this major hit? John Edward totally scored something big that made Liam and anyone else paying attention really believe that Edward is the real deal. Was there anything in it for John Edward to have "cheated" and did a hot-reading? I mean what is more likely that Edward got an amazing hit (because he talks to dead people, or just a lucky hit) or that he found out Liam's real name somehow?

I look at it this way. The odds you are going to win the lottery are very very small. But the odds that someone is going to win are really good. In this case either Edwards had a shill or cheated some other way, it just happened to be on a person you had talked to earlier. Weird? Yes, but not that weird.

I think Mark Edward would be able be able to give us a lot more guidance on this.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

It could be cold reading: JE takes a shot at the name “Joshua”. Liam’s eye’s snap to JE’s and he does a quick, unconscious gesture back at himself in a “you mean me?” kind of way and stands up. So JE says, “So you are Joshua.” A couple people at the table start shaking their heads in a “no, no JE just go that one wrong” kind of way. Liam says, “Yes, I’m Joshua.” People at the table look at him in questioning surprise. So JE says, “But you didn’t introduce your self that way.” Just a bit of body language, a small hand gesture and a couple of shakes of the head, gives it away.

The problem seem to be though, that JE went on with an excellent reading. That would indicate hot reading. All JE needs is an accomplice to find out a bit of information on one or two people. Then JE can do a show of cold reading and just throw in one hot read zinger to really sell it. So the accomplice lingers around the box office or entrance line, or play the part of a person going to see the show, or even gets a job in the box office or as an usher or something. Some days the accomplice may only come up with, “gray haired lady in pink sweater at table 17 wants to find out about her dead mother Rose.” In other cases they can get a name and city and find out more information. Maybe the accomplice was behind Liam at the box office and peeked at his driver’s license when Liam pulled out his wallet to pay cash for the ticket (you said Liam’s ticket said he paid cash, I’m not sure if you can purchase a ticket with cash over the internet). Or maybe the compliance overhead Liam mention that he was “Liam Wachowski” and a “dentist from Quebec” or whatever. Since Liam has an unusual name, Google easily turns up a “Dr. Joshua Liam Wachowski, DDS” in Quebec. A bit more searching turns up a few details for the hot read.

Of course it could be even easier. Perhaps they asked his name for the seating chart. JE gets his hands on the seating chart. He Googles “Liam Wachowski” and comes up with the information above. If JE can get his hands on a couple of unusual names of audience members, a quick Google would likely turn up some details. Whether JE gets his information from something like ticket sales or a seating chart or an accomplice either on the inside or just eavesdropping, it doesn’t seem that difficult.

Uncovering the secret might be a bit more problematic. You might try to find out if any information about audience members, like a seating chart, find its way into JE’s hands. It seems likely this would be unlikely or at least difficult to uncover since a lot of JE’s schtick is guessing names. If the trick is done with an accomplice, someone could watch the box office and entrance lines and audience member to see if the same one or two people always seem to be hanging around. Another means of catching JE in the trick is to attend the show using an unusual name that turns up one and only one real person on a Google search that has a lot of information about that person. The problem is that it would have to be someone who doesn’t have a picture online. And of course there is no guaranty that your fake name gets picked for the hot read, so you would have to attend a number of shows before catching JE in the trick.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Now I've read the entire thread.

Joshua Liam probably opened his wallet once or many times after it was clear he was heading for the show. Like my lottery reference, people weren't sent out to discover Liam's real name. People were sent out to discover the full name (or any other do-dad of info)of ANYONE going to the show. Someone just happened to see Liam's name and reported it back to JE. They watched where he sat (didn't even have to be exact, just in the general area) and JE pointed in that area and said "Joshua".

It could have been just about anyone wandering around before the show, someone could have spilled their purse in front of someone who was "glenning" the audience, some medication could have rolled out and that would have been the "hit" when the show started.

It is only odd (just odd) that this was the person you talked to in line.

Also want to point out.

John Edward does talk to dead people.

So do I

NOTE: I notice that Francine is back, I have missed your comments on skepticblog Francine.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Forgot to mention

Don't understand why showing a driver's license is all that odd. A man carries his wallet everywhere and the top card is usually the DL. Who carries a passport in your wallet into a casino? Women might in a purse but not a man. A man would leave his passport back at the hotel (or better yet in his wife's purse)

If someone doubted my name (age, address ect) I would whip out my DL and NOT my credit card.

He opened his wallet to take out some cash and someone peeked.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

But, here is my best suggestion for how to catch him, and if any of you are ever in Las Vegas when John Edward is performing, let me know and we can get together and take a run at it.

We're going to need to have ten people in the audience who are paying attention to who gets a reading during the show. Then we're just gonna have to walk up to those people as they exit, corral them, and ask them what's up.

Of course, now we can have an ethical debate about it. These are people who will more than likely be crying who believe they have just received verification that their loved one is still around. So. What say you? At the very least, we should attempt to get names, and then go online and see if we can divine identical information through non-paranormal means.

Oooh, I wish I were in Vegas. I'm a sucker for stunts like that.


Anyway, we've discussed this in the past over IRC, and like many others I think it's either 1. a plant 2. info stroke of luck or 3. old-fashioned cold reading.

One thing I wonder - After "Liam" stood up, did he walk over to John Edward (thus allowing for easier cold reading) or stay back where he'd be obscured by the stage lights?