John Edward - psychic or what?

[ynot]

They are an enormous help. It means that I will have a set list of things to be looking for the next time around, and that I will slowly be able to eliminate the possibilities. For instance, I had not considered WHY I didn't think the couple I talked about earlier didn't know Edward, but thinking it over has given me the reason. This is good.

You ran the JREF MDC for 3 years and didn’t automatically consider the basic possibilities presented on this thread? I guess (hope) you weren’t responsible for test protocols.

I agree that it must either be hot reading or supernatural powers. I am simply trying to catch him with his hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, whether that cookie jar is full of dead people or plants.

Are you really considering supernatural powers as an option (even slightly)?

 

[RemieV]

1. What does Liam do for a living?
2. How did you track him down?

I don't know what he does for a living. I do know, however, that he is a clown at charitable events. There are only so many clowns with his first and middle name. Google was quite helpful.

You ran the JREF MDC for 3 years and didn’t automatically consider the basic possibilities presented on this thread? I guess (hope) you weren’t responsible for test protocols.


Are you really considering supernatural powers as an option (even slightly)?

*eyeroll* Please don't get all superior on me. I said nothing about the ideas presented in the thread beyond the fact that they were making me think about assumptions I had made regarding individuals in the audience at the shows. And yes - I do find it helpful when people ask questions or challenge me on preconceived notions.

Yes, I wrote the testing protocols for the Challenge for the past three years. I was, in fact, the only point of contact for the Challenge - from claim to test, everything the JREF did in the past three years prior to August was my work.

As for whether I consider supernatural powers as an option - of course I do. That is the claim being made by John Edward. I find other possibilities far, far more likely, and will be unable to reach a conclusion regarding Edward without an actual double blind test. I do not pretend to have all answers (or even know all the questions). If you view this as a negative, fine by me.

I also had my own skeptical organization (now defunct), have given lectures on the paranormal all over the country, have written non-fiction articles published all over the place, been a consultant for MSNBC, TruTV, and Discovery on paranormal topics, and was briefly a co-host of a skeptical podcast.

Sooo... clearly my brand of skepticism is working out just fine.

 

[ynot]

So Liam stood up.
One of the ushers brought him a microphone so that he could communicate with Edward. Edward again said that he had gotten the name 'Joshua', and then said that there was something weird about it, because he had the sensation that the name was LIAM's. Then Edward paused for a moment. Liam had not said anything at this time.

Isn’t it strange that he stood up and said absolutely nothing? Who would stand up and say nothing? Why even stand up? No wide eyed “WOW” or nodding even?

Edward said that, though Liam's name was Joshua, he had not introduced himself that way to the rest of his table.

How did Edward know that the people at his table weren’t his family or friends that knew him well enough to know his real first name? Hope you don't have to consider genuine psychic ability.

Edward then asked Joshua to hand the microphone over to someone else at the table, and then asked that person what Joshua had introduced himself as. The person said, "Liam."

This happened before Liam had confirmed he was Joshua? Wouldn’t Edward have gotten confirmation from Liam first. At the very least Liam would have confirmed out of sheer amazement. To proceed without confirmation reveals an un-natural cocky confidence given the embarrassment if he was wrong.

Edward then asked Joshua to take out his driver's license and show it to everyone else at the table. The driver's license said that his name was Joshua Liam Smith.

So before Liam uttered a single word Edward got confirmation from others at the table and asked Liam to show everyone his license for confirmation. How did Edward even know Liam held a drivers license and had it on him? All very theatrically dramatic but not how things would have occurred under genuine circumstances. Seems to me Liam was an obvious plant that was going along with the act.

Aside - John Oliver predicted that Angelina and Brad would stay together for 2010. I don't keep up with such things but I’m sure they actually split. Hardly “impressive”.

 

[Ernie M]

[...]
The only people who went back and forth between the audience and the backstage area were photographers who were taking souvenir photos. I assumed, at first, that this was how the trick was done, and that these people were not actually from Las Vegas, but were on Edward's staff.

I, therefore, researched the photographers and the photography company. They are not associated with John Edward, and they really are residents of Las Vegas.

I also had an individual standing outside of the theatre to see if, at the commencement of the show, any radio signals cropped up and then disappeared. The scanner revealed no such activity.

[...]
The photographer idea still remains a possibility, but it strikes me as unlikely as well. I know no one's going to believe this, but John Edward was giving rather extensive information on people with little to no feedback. The photographers walked up, shot a photo, and walked away. They weren't really standing there long enough to get the amount of information Edward was giving.
[...]

What I mean is - the reading seemed to be tailored for particular people in the audience. He seemed to know in advance who he was going to talk to. For the life of me, I cannot figure out HOW.

I wonder if a possibility could include the use of facial recognition software.

Example:
What if a photographer takes a digital photo of person's face, disappears from view, then someone uses facial recognition software to search a photo 'database' such as Picasa Web, then looks for name 'tags' for faces of the photo(s) just taken. That 'database' could provide information in addition to than just a person's name. Also, a further Internet search based on the name(s)/info could be done. That information could then somehow be fed to the "psychic."

Don't know if this could be a possible explanation as to why the photographers disappear- and how "psychic" gets detailed information about a person...

 

[KSskeptic]

This sounds a lot like a trick Randi has talked about. When he was just starting out, he had a big show in Toronto. He had a friend in Toronto, a university student, basically stake out the box office. A woman came in to buy tickets. The student was able to overhear the seat locations. When she left, he followed her home. This was weeks before the performance. A couple of weeks later, the student goes to the house and asks the lady if she has time for a survey about her insurance coverage as part of a class assignment. She invites him in and he asks some questions. Now he has her name in addition to the address. During this time, he notices a clock with roses on the face with the hands not on the clock but laying on the bottom of the glass cover on the face of the clock. He relays this info to Randi. So during the show, Randi points in the general direction of this woman is seated and calls her name. Then gives her address. Then the details about the clock. Hit after hit and always right on. This woman was convinced that Randi was psychic because there was no way for him to know this information. It worked because the lady didn't associate the student and Randi.

It seems kind of fishy that John Edwards asked him to pull out his driver's license. Why not a credit card? Or anything else? Of course, if John Edwards had specific knowledge that the license would read Joshua Liam, well then, that's not just a hit, that's a "How the hell could he know that?" kind of hit. Kind of like the clock.

 

[Lolly]

I don't know what he does for a living. I do know, however, that he is a clown at charitable events. There are only so many clowns with his first and middle name. Google was quite helpful.

So, he's in showbusiness and has an on-line presence?

 

[RemieV]

Isn’t it strange that he stood up and said absolutely nothing? Who would stand up and say nothing? Why even stand up? No wide eyed “WOW” or nodding even?

He raised his hand at his name being called, and then stood when Edward asked him to. I've no idea why he didn't respond with surprise.

How did Edward know that the people at his table weren’t his family or friends that knew him well enough to know his real first name?

The table he was sitting at sat, if I remember rightly, six. Most everyone there was sitting with at least one stranger. Though I had not considered this aspect before, I think that was probably a reasonable assumption.

This happened before Liam had confirmed he was Joshua? Wouldn’t Edward have gotten confirmation from Liam first. At the very least Liam would have confirmed out of sheer amazement.

My memory isn't good enough to answer this question. I can tell you there is no audible confirmation, and I can listen to the recording again and transcribe it for you at a later date.

So before Liam uttered a single word Edward got confirmation from others at the table and asked Liam to show everyone his license for confirmation. How did Edward even know Liam held a drivers license and had it on him? All very theatrically dramatic but not how things would have occurred under genuine circumstances. Seems to me Liam was an obvious plant that was going along with the act.

I'll re-listen and give all the gory details. I don't think he was a plant, though. Someone else could have potentially been, but Liam's story, insofar as I can tell (which is pretty far) checks out.

Aside - John Oliver predicted that Angelina and Brad would stay together for 2010. I don't keep up with such things but I’m sure they actually split. Hardly “impressive”.

Hah... They didn't actually split. The tabloids said they did, but it was a lie. They sued the tabloids for reporting it, actually.

I wonder if a possibility could include the use of facial recognition software.

Example:
What if a photographer takes a digital photo of person's face, disappears from view, then someone uses facial recognition software to search a photo 'database' such as Picasa Web, then looks for name 'tags' for faces of the photo(s) just taken. That 'database' could provide information in addition to than just a person's name. Also, a further Internet search based on the name(s)/info could be done. That information could then somehow be fed to the "psychic."

Don't know if this could be a possible explanation as to why the photographers disappear- and how "psychic" gets detailed information about a person...

Doubtful. It would take way, way too much time. The more likely reason that the photographers disappear backstage is so their co-workers can start printing the photographs, ensuring that all of them will be done printing by the show's end.

 

[ynot]

Most everyone there was sitting with at least one stranger.

How do you know that? People often travel to places like Vegas in family/friend groups of six (three sets of couples).

Hah... They didn't actually split. The tabloids said they did, but it was a lie. They sued the tabloids for reporting it, actually.

So he remains "impressive" then.

 

[ynot]

I've no idea why he didn't respond with surprise.

I gave you one.

 

[RemieV]

How do you know that? People often travel to places like Vegas in family/friend groups of six (three sets of couples).



So he remains "impressive" then.

Well, I could tell because I was closely watching when people sat down.

 

[RemieV]

I gave you one.

I'll rephrase - I have several ideas, but nothing solid.

 

[ynot]

Well, I could tell because I was closely watching when people sat down.

You closely watched at least 150 people sit down and could tell whether they knew each other or not? Forget Edward, YOU’RE amazing.

Besides the point is Edward didn’t watch everyone sit down and the question is how did he know the people at Liam's table didn't know each other, not you.

 

[ynot]

I'll rephrase - I have several ideas, but nothing solid.

Paranormal means against non- paranormal means is pretty solid in favour of the later.

 

[RemieV]

You closely watched at least 150 people sit down and could tell whether they knew each other or not? Forget Edward, YOU’RE amazing.

No, I paid attention to WHEN people sat down. People who are together tend to come in at the same time, having just been standing next to each other in line.

Paranormal means against non- paranormal means is pretty solid in favour of the later.

I am not positing that he knows by paranormal means, outside of accepting it as an extremely far-fetched explanation. I think you are misreading me - I am not shooting down ideas or looking for a paranormal explanation. I am seeking the best possible way to catch him in the act.

I'll say this again - Liam being a plant is far-fetched. I do not think that's how the trick is done. Because I do not think that is how the trick was done, I am not attempting to pursue that avenue - because tickets to John Edward's show are incredibly expensive, and if I only get, say, one more shot at the whole thing, I'm going to make it count as much as possible.

You don't have to talk me out of believing in psychics. I don't believe in psychics. Being 'impressive' isn't the same thing as being psychic.

 

[Francine]

How many times does she have to say that she is not suggesting supernatural powers? She's merely trying to see if anyone else has an explanation that she has not thought of yet.

Here's my two cents:

I believe "Liam" to be a friend of a friend or a guest of JE's.

I know Sylvia Browne's camp very well. I know how tickets are comped for shows, whether it be convention centers, theaters, or casinos. When a performer gets you a ticket or tickets saved at will-call, you get handed a ticket just like you had paid cash. Your name certainly won't be printed on it and you don't have to put it on credit. Your name is simply on a will-call list and that's the only place it would be.

You might wonder why a guest of JE would be in a crappier section and not in the front. Well, that's easy. I'm sure that the front row tickets or tables were a lot more expensive. They wanted to sell the more expensive tickets to paying customers. Or- maybe those seats were all booked up and the only ticket available to JE's friend "Liam" was the seat he was assigned. If seats are sold in the more expensive areas, a performer can't just kick those paying customers out of their seats for a guest of theirs. Especially at a casino. Convention centers are a lot easier because they usually seat people in sections. It's easy to save a block of seats up front for performer's guests and then have paying customers sit down on a first come, first served basis.

It seems perfectly logical that JE would want to pull a trick like this in front of a smaller crowd. Something like this would seem much more impressive to 150 people than 2,000 people. A setting like that is more intimate in nature and people feel more connected to one another. If 10% of your audience is skeptical when you have an audience of 2,000- you have a hell of a lot of doubtful people on your hands. I know it's all relative- 10% is 10% no matter what. BUT- if you as a skeptic are sitting in a smaller crowd, you might find it inappropriate to say something in a small audience because you wouldn't want to disrespect those people around you having their big night out. A bigger audience has more opportunity to talk freely to those around them. A bigger audience also might not notice the magnitude of JE's "hit" over a name. It makes more of an impression with the smaller audience.

I don't know if you realize how easy it is to get to a casino floor (theater entrance) from a green room or back stage. It is often times VERY CLOSE. It's not just directly behind the stage that is "backstage". It's the walls on the sides, too. That whole area back there is "backstage". Liam very easily could have been back shooting the you know what with JE one minute and then slipped out the door and got into line. If there were only 150 people in the show, it's not like it was a very big line.

What seems very suspicious to me is that this person would introduce himself on a personal level like that to you. I have been to countless shows and concerts, have stood in line exactly like you are describing, and I HAVE NEVER, as far as I can recall, shared my name or had someone tell me their name. It's usually just the normal chit-chat about the performer, the weather, the casino, etc. But a name?! I don't think so. It seems obvious to me that this person told you his name for a reason. If you had been a believer and saw JE's name trick, you probably would have told everyone around you at your table that you KNEW this to be true. It creates more "validation" for JE. Professional psychics LOVE to create this false validation....and they're good at it.

Another thing that seems odd to me is that he would whip out his driver's license to validate his name. I'm not saying that someone wouldn't. But I know that you have to have a passport now to enter the US from Canada and vice versa. Why would you carry your driver's license around as ID? When I travel abroad (yes- even to Canada), I carry my passport as ID because I know that people will know that it's valid. Would he really have his license right there on the spot to whip out as proof?

How exactly did you communicate with this person? Did he also give you his email address in line, too? How do you know he was there with his wife? And would a guy really go and see someone like JE alone, without a woman dragging him along? Sorry- I'm not trying to be sexist, but in my experience, this is usually how men end up at these types of shows.

 

[Kochanski]

How about if JE had some people stationed by the box office to get into conversation with people purchasing tickets before the show? A person probably would not have remembered that they had a conversation with a random person before a show. Especially if it was hours before or the day before the show.

 

[ynot]

No, I paid attention to WHEN people sat down. People who are together tend to come in at the same time, having just been standing next to each other in line.

As I added to that post - "Besides the point is Edward didn’t watch everyone sit down and the question is how did he know the people at Liam's table didn't know each other, not you."

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Somehow, I'm still not impressed.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

How exactly did you communicate with this person? Did he also give you his email address in line, too? How do you know he was there with his wife? And would a guy really go and see someone like JE alone, without a woman dragging him along? Sorry- I'm not trying to be sexist, but in my experience, this is usually how men end up at these types of shows.

If I could read the Devil's line here, it could be something as simple as RemieV being, y'know...kinda hot.

But still, even if it was something as 'innocuous' as a married guy chatting up a girl in line, why mention that you're married? Guys do stupid things sometimes, and say even dumber things. And he was Canadian, and probably stunk like back bacon. But that's not the point.

Yeah, I'm with you here. The name-dropping on total strangers is a little odd, unless that's just how they do it up at the Tim Hortons in Yellowknife.

 

[ynot]

Points to consider . . .

Out of 25-30 tables Edward knew exactly which one Liam was sitting at.

He knew Liam’s first and second name and knew he was using his second.

He knew the others at the table didn't know Liam.

He knew the others at the table didn’t know Liam’s first name or that he was using his second.

He knew Liam didn't tell the others at the table his first name in conversation.

He knew Liam was there alone even though he has a wife.

He knew Liam had a drivers license and had it on him.

He knew all this with such confidence he didn't need to get anything confirmed from Liam.

This level of "success" is way higher than Edward usually achieves with "normal" cheating methods.

Liam apparently didn’t say anything or act impressed or surprised throughout.

It’s not rocket science.