John Chang 'chi master'

JoeyDonuts said:
The fact that none of these so-called "ki" arts have managed to survive the crucible of MMA is a testament to their lack of utility. But yet, their adherents will claim that "ki" gives them ability to do the fantastic.
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Well said. I know you linked to it, but I just have to post this straight here. One of the most tragicomic showdowns I've ever seen.

Bad video quality, but it sort of fits in...



somnum, you might want to skim through this thread...
 
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somnum said:
No, I don't know who they are.
I just want someone to do a breakdown of what he's likely doing. How he's doing it. Why they didn't find anything, etc. This is a massive diversion.
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Well, fair enough. You seem to have run into a certain amount of perhaps unjustified flak. You have to make allowances, though; we have so many people coming here 'just asking questions'.

As to how he is doing it, we can't really know. We don't have to be able to explain his methods to dismiss the notion that it is paranormal, but one can always try.

For the 'electric' stuff: Alone the way he is touching people seems to rule out electricity. He only seems to touch them quite lightly and you get what appears to be muscle contractions.

Let me explain: The human body is the electrical equivalent of a saline solution. The resistance between any two parts of the body, when measured inside the skin is about 300 Ohms. However, the skin is not very conductive, and the resistance between any two points of the skin (by mere contact) is several thousand Ohms.

This means two things:

1) To create an impulse large enough to create a muscle contraction in another person, John Chang would have to create a many times stronger pulse in his own body, to overcome the attenuation when the high skin resistance is seen in series with the low internal body resistance.

2) Such a large pulse would dissipate most of its energy in the skin of the subject (and John's). This hurts!. John Chang may be able to suppress his reaction, but the 'victim' would scream.

I think what he does (if the subject is not part of the trick) is to trigger one of the many involuntary reactions that exist (the knee-jerk reaction being the best known).

Of course, when he manipulates acupuncture needles, he is in contact with the inner body, but then when manipulating a needle deep in the victim's flesh, it is not difficult to elicit a reaction, even without using electricity.

The only tricks that may involve electricity is when he touches some other person and that person jerks his hand back, but even that may be done in other ways. As a trick, it could be done by giving himself a charge (like a static charge) and then zapping the other person, something we can all do under the right conditions.

As we know from certain creatures (think electric eels), a biological body can create quite a strong electrical current. This is done with converted muscle tissue. A considerable portion of the electric eel's body is devoted to this. None such converted tissue exists in the normal human body, however. I doubt that John Chang's body is any different.

Obviously, the ability to create an electric impulse would be extremely easy to test.

Hans
 
JoeyDonuts said:
The metal detector's sensitivity could conceivably be altered, too - though I'm not entirely sure how one would go about doing so.
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This may come as a world-altering surprise, and in no way invalidates the possibility of magic, but:

Metal detectors come with built-in sensitivity adjustments. I haven't personally worked with the walk through ones (but I know it can be done with them). I have extensive experience with hand held detectors. Most have the adjuster right there on the handle.
 
MRC_Hans said:
Obviously, the ability to create an electric impulse would be extremely easy to test.
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A well thought out post thanks Hans... And the part of it I've quoted above is the reason why Chang would NEVER submit to being tested thoroughly.
 
Garrette said:
This may come as a world-altering surprise, and in no way invalidates the possibility of magic, but:

Metal detectors come with built-in sensitivity adjustments. I haven't personally worked with the walk through ones (but I know it can be done with them). I have extensive experience with hand held detectors. Most have the adjuster right there on the handle.
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A small charge generator could probably be built that could pass undetected through a walk-through detector. A hand-held will be harder to fool, exept here you can use sleight of hand to keep it out if range (especially since the range of a hand-held is deliberately made short).

A charge generator strong enough to give you a jolt can be built using three/four components and a button cell battery. It could be smaller than a penny.

Hans
 
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somnum said:
Well I'm not sure how specific you want to get with that 'in any way', but let's just say as much environment as is the cause for the potential between the synapse and interior of a neuron. So I would say correct not interacting with the environment, but you would need to make sure you had a diet with electrolytes /s
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Okay, let me make this even simpler...

If this guy was put into an empty room, completely naked, with no way of generating an electrostatic charge via interaction with his environment (by coming into contact with other objects, rubbing up against them, etc), then does he claim that he can still do these things?

If he's not willing to make that claim & consider being tested in these or similar conditions, then I see this whole thing as a non-starter.
 
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JoeyDonuts said:
When I was taking Aikido I heard every rationalization in the book for the presence of "ki" or "chi" or "qi" or whatever you want to call it. Some say it's a "life force" that permeates every living thing, some say it's biomechanical processes, but in each case the practicioners of ki-based martial arts contend that this force can be manipulated and used by the practicioner for various effects.
They'll say that focusing it into your arms makes you hit harder. Concentrating it in your torso makes it invulnerable to harm.
Becoming zanshin makes it effortless to blend with your opponent's attack and "feel" what he's doing.

There are other explanations for these phenomena, and none of them are spiritual.

The fact that none of these so-called "ki" arts have managed to survive the crucible of MMA is a testament to their lack of utility. But yet, their adherents will claim that "ki" gives them ability to do the fantastic.

Hard work, solid proven techniques and training methods and athleticism are the keys to being an effective martial artist, not belief in unproven, non-existent, and utterly worthless methods and concepts.

However, belief in "ki" and its quasi-mystical effects allows people to become convinced their martial art is effective. They could be grossly out of shape, but with a few parlor tricks and an environment full of confirmation bias they'll tell anyone who will listen about the way they're able to project ki and sense an opponents movements. Compliant and scripted unrealistic "real life" scenarios really drive the point home for folks caught up in this stuff.

You put a ki-throwing Aikido or Qigong master and put him in a scuffle with a guy that did wrestling for a few years and I'll tell ya who's going to win that one.

"Qi" is garbage, it's been proven so and anyone claiming to be able to accomplish anything using it may as well claim that he can summon faeries to do his bidding.
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This is one of my biggest complaints about martial arts in general. I've been practicing various styles for 20 years now, and I've been practicing Aikido for about 14 years (testing for black belt soon). Sadly, JD is correct when stating that Aikido is one of those styles which can attract a number of woo-meisters. Some Aikido schools (mine, thankfully) are solid in that they really work on good physical training: punching, kicking, weapons work, etc. However, there are those folks - I've met them at some seminars - who are all into the "ki energy" nonsense and basically get laughed at by the rest of us.

And those goofs deserve to be laughed at, in my opinion. If you argue that you can actually knock someone down from a distance without physically touching them and you're not using a gun, then you're an idiot :rolleyes:
 
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Redtail said:
I do find Tai Chi good for "meditating" though.
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JoeyDonuts said:
It ain't gonna prepare you for a physical altercation any more than relaxing in a nice chair with some Al Green (maybe Miles Davis) and a glass of whiskey will.

That's how I prefer to meditate. :D
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There are a lot of ways to meditate. Sometimes I do the traditional method of zazen, and sometimes Jim Bean helps me out. :)
 
Tapio said:
Well said. I know you linked to it, but I just have to post this straight here. One of the most tragicomic showdowns I've ever seen.

Bad video quality, but it sort of fits in...

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That's some pretty major chi/ki/qi fail, but the best one I've ever seen is the guy who slashed his own arm with a razor-sharp machete, claiming he could use his "energy" to protect himself.

Take a guess as to what happened (warning: not for the squeamish)...
 
MattusMaximus said:
This is one of my biggest complaints about martial arts in general. I've been practicing various styles for 20 years now, and I've been practicing Aikido for about 14 years (testing for black belt soon). Sadly, JD is correct when stating that Aikido is one of those styles which can attract a number of woo-meisters. Some Aikido schools (mine, thankfully) are solid in that they really work on good physical training: punching, kicking, weapons work, etc. However, there are those folks - I've met them at some seminars - who are all into the "ki energy" nonsense and basically get laughed at by the rest of us.

And those goofs deserve to be laughed at, in my opinion. If you argue that you can actually knock someone down from a distance without physically touching them and you're not using a gun, then you're an idiot :rolleyes:
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My only post contributing to a derail in this thread:

I agree that Aikido has limited ability in a knock-down-drag-out fight. However, in my experience as a security director at various hospitals and clinics dealing with: drunkards, people on drugs, people with head injuries causing them to act out, people having seizures, the mentally ill, the irrationally acting family members of trauma patients, and more, I found that Aikido and Jiu Jitsu were the most effective styles on which to base a modified program of non-injurious intervention. As always, most safely applied in groups of four.
 
That was an interesting video, the one in the OP and having watched it last night when the thread was in it's infancy, I didn't have any "skepticism" to cloud my perceptions. IMO, that was one of the phoniest videos I've ever watched.

When Chang is failing the voltmeter test, he says it's Chi, not electricity that he's producing yet he goes on to perform tricks that obviously involve electricity like the LED in the mouth one.

So he failed a metal detector test? so what? that not conclusive of anything especially if he's using a hand held device that can be easily switched from one hand to the other and kept out of the detectors range. Why didn't they demand he take his shirt off then? It can't be "modesty" because anyone who's willing to be filmed lying on a table with some funny looking little gonad covering thing can't be considered a prude in any sense of the word.

A knife spinning on it's sheath, big whoop, stand the thing up on it's tip and make it dance, then I'd be impressed.:)

Chopstick through a table from beneath the table, oh please, how much effort does it take to hammer a chopstick through a formica table top through a pre drilled hole or crack in the wood of the table. Call in the CSI guys on this one and let's do a reconstruction of the event.

And then he tops it all off by showing his regret and dismay at letting himself being filmed showing off his "powers" to the outside world. That IMO, was laying it on a little too thick.

I'll accept the concept of Chi may have some applications in martial arts as a visualization technique but nothing more. Back in my woo positive days, I took Tae Kwon Do and any mention of "martial arts magic" was quickly discounted in favour of training and technique. Still, everybody knows somebody who knows "this guy" who studies Kung Fu and can throw his Chi across the room. Nobody's ever seen 'this guy" do it, but repeats the stories nonetheless.
 
somnum, very simply... would you agree that if each of these things can be recreated by someone NOT claiming special powers, then John Chang may not be doing these things via special powers either?
 
Stout said:
I'll accept the concept of Chi may have some applications in martial arts as a visualization technique but nothing more. Back in my woo positive days, I took Tae Kwon Do and any mention of "martial arts magic" was quickly discounted in favour of training and technique. Still, everybody knows somebody who knows "this guy" who studies Kung Fu and can throw his Chi across the room. Nobody's ever seen 'this guy" do it, but repeats the stories nonetheless.
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Excellent point, Stout, especially about using the whole idea of "chi" as nothing more than a visualization technique. But, as you've said, there's nothing real or physical to the "chi-whammy" nonsense.

And yeah, over the years, I've run into "that guy" on more than one occasion :rolleyes:
 
Garrette said:
My only post contributing to a derail in this thread:

I agree that Aikido has limited ability in a knock-down-drag-out fight. However, in my experience as a security director at various hospitals and clinics dealing with: drunkards, people on drugs, people with head injuries causing them to act out, people having seizures, the mentally ill, the irrationally acting family members of trauma patients, and more, I found that Aikido and Jiu Jitsu were the most effective styles on which to base a modified program of non-injurious intervention. As always, most safely applied in groups of four.
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I agree with your criticism of Aikido. In my opinion, far too many Aikido practitioners are too limited in their training, especially in atemi-waza (punching & kicking). Sadly, whenever I bring this up in the dojo, a lot of people nod and tell me "yeah, you're right" but then they never follow through and adjust their training accordingly. I've actually seen black belts in Aikido hurt themselves when punching a heavy bag because they don't know how to punch properly - duh :rolleyes:

Makes me glad I still retain all my knowledge & training from my old TKD and karate days. Because on occasion when I teach class, we punch & kick!

That said, Aikido (and JJ) are very good in terms of learning body movement, control, joint locks, and some throws. Put this together with some good, solid striking & grappling training and you've got a well-rounded set of skills.

ETA: Back to your regularly scheduled thread...
 
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MattusMaximus said:
I agree with your criticism of Aikido. In my opinion, far too many Aikido practitioners are too limited in their training, especially in atemi-waza (punching & kicking). Sadly, whenever I bring this up in the dojo, a lot of people nod and tell me "yeah, you're right" but then they never follow through and adjust their training accordingly. I've actually seen black belts in Aikido hurt themselves when punching a heavy bag because they don't know how to punch properly - duh :rolleyes:

Makes me glad I still retain all my knowledge & training from my old TKD and karate days. Because on occasion when I teach class, we punch & kick!

That said, Aikido (and JJ) are very good in terms of learning body movement, control, joint locks, and some throws. Put this together with some good, solid striking & grappling training and you've got a well-rounded set of skills.

ETA: Back to your regularly scheduled thread...
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Adding the punching and kicking seems to be describing Hapkido, of which I am a black belt BTW. My way of knocking someone out from a distance is the ancient art of throwing a rock.:D
 
Lanzy said:
Adding the punching and kicking seems to be describing Hapkido, of which I am a black belt BTW. My way of knocking someone out from a distance is the ancient art of throwing a rock.:D
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I can see it now... "Master Chang knocked him out by throwing his chi through that rock!"

Sorry, couldn't resist :D
 
*insert token comment about lack of "aliveness" in most Aikido training*

I'm a Shodan in Tomiki-Ryu Aikido by the way. It's been years and I don't remember a damned thing except the first few techniques.
 
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