John Chang 'chi master'

somnum said:
Ah, that's understandable why you wouldn't get it, because I am using the term 'focal' in a medical context. As in, a specific part of the body.
Click to expand...

Got it.

And no of course your example would not qualify because you neglected my "of bodily origin" part of definition.
Click to expand...

Again, this is vague. Do you mean that he can create an electrostatic charge without interacting with his environment in any way?
 
MattusMaximus said:
So, you're still being a bit too vague here. Please tell me, very specifically, what Chang claims to be able to do. Is he claiming that he can simply "summon up" an electric charge and then zap people with it? What?
Click to expand...
Basically Chang claims to be able to use Chi energy to send electric shocks into people, to use Chi energy to light fires, to use Chi energy to make smoke come from his fingertips and to use Chi energy to push a chop stick through a wooden table.
 
arthwollipot said:
You've missed the point. Is Chang really producing an electric charge? Or is he using some kind of trick? What's more likely - that someone has a previously-unknown magic power, or that they are cleverly deceiving people? Here's a hint: clever deceivers are known to exist.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I haven't missed the point at all. You claimed that I made a non sequitur, when it is clear I haven't. I haven't drawn any conclusions at all. Of course I am arguing as a 'defense' because I want to hear strong arguments for how he's doing this, which so far people have not given, but I am more than willing to listen to - seriously. However, what I will not listen to are logical fallacies and condescending dismissals without sufficient argument.
And if you really want to get down to it, when have I said that anything he has done is magic? Have you been paying attention to my line of reasoning in the slightest? I think that whether he can do this or not, it is almost certainly not magic, and will have a physiological basis.
 
Last edited:
somnum said:
I'm sorry I haven't missed the point at all. You claimed that I made a non sequitur, when it is clear I haven't. I haven't drawn any conclusions at all. Of course I am arguing as a 'defense' because I want to hear strong arguments for how he's doing this, which so far people have not given, but I am more than willing to listen to - seriously. However, what I will not listen to, are logical fallacies and condescending dismissals without sufficient argument.
And if you really want to get down to it, when have I said that anything he has done is magic? Have you been paying attention to my line of reasoning in the slightest? I think that whether he can do this or not, it is almost certainly not magic, and will have a physiological basis.
Click to expand...
You're not related to KoA or Rramjet are you?
 
MattusMaximus said:
Got it.
Again, this is vague. Do you mean that he can create an electrostatic charge without interacting with his environment in any way?
Click to expand...

Well I'm not sure how specific you want to get with that 'in any way', but let's just say as much environment as is the cause for the potential between the synapse and interior of a neuron. So I would say correct not interacting with the environment, but you would need to make sure you had a diet with electrolytes /s
 
When I was taking Aikido I heard every rationalization in the book for the presence of "ki" or "chi" or "qi" or whatever you want to call it. Some say it's a "life force" that permeates every living thing, some say it's biomechanical processes, but in each case the practicioners of ki-based martial arts contend that this force can be manipulated and used by the practicioner for various effects.
They'll say that focusing it into your arms makes you hit harder. Concentrating it in your torso makes it invulnerable to harm.
Becoming zanshin makes it effortless to blend with your opponent's attack and "feel" what he's doing.

There are other explanations for these phenomena, and none of them are spiritual.

The fact that none of these so-called "ki" arts have managed to survive the crucible of MMA is a testament to their lack of utility. But yet, their adherents will claim that "ki" gives them ability to do the fantastic.

Hard work, solid proven techniques and training methods and athleticism are the keys to being an effective martial artist, not belief in unproven, non-existent, and utterly worthless methods and concepts.

However, belief in "ki" and its quasi-mystical effects allows people to become convinced their martial art is effective. They could be grossly out of shape, but with a few parlor tricks and an environment full of confirmation bias they'll tell anyone who will listen about the way they're able to project ki and sense an opponents movements. Compliant and scripted unrealistic "real life" scenarios really drive the point home for folks caught up in this stuff.

You put a ki-throwing Aikido or Qigong master and put him in a scuffle with a guy that did wrestling for a few years and I'll tell ya who's going to win that one.

"Qi" is garbage, it's been proven so and anyone claiming to be able to accomplish anything using it may as well claim that he can summon faeries to do his bidding.
 
Stray Cat said:
You're not related to KoA or Rramjet are you?
Click to expand...

No, I don't know who they are.
I just want someone to do a breakdown of what he's likely doing. How he's doing it. Why they didn't find anything, etc. This is a massive diversion.
 
JoeyDonuts said:
"Qi" is garbage, it's been proven so and anyone claiming to be able to accomplish anything using it may as well claim that he can summon faeries to do his bidding.
Click to expand...

Though I believe "Wax on, Wax off" is a valid training technique :D
 
Well, first you need to show that he is actually doing these things paranormally. Once that is accomplished, and it hasn't been yet, then we can move on to discuss how that might be working.

If he is doing them paranormally, he is doing them the hard way.
 
somnum said:
No, I don't know who they are.
I just want someone to do a breakdown of what he's likely doing. How he's doing it. Why they didn't find anything, etc. This is a massive diversion.
Click to expand...
Are you specifically referring to the claimed 'sending electrical impulses' or the other tricks he does?
 
Stray Cat said:
Are you specifically referring to the claimed 'sending electrical impulses' or the other tricks he does?
Click to expand...

I'm just talking about the electrical impulses. I don't think there's anything special about putting a chopstick through a table. And the fire bit the scientists weren't there for, and I'm really only concerned with how they were fooled. Actually I'm in the process of trying to track them down to ask them if the documentary went as swimmingly as it is seems to have gone.
 
Last edited:
somnum said:
I'm just talking about the electrical impulses. I don't think there's anything special about putting a chopstick through a table. And the fire bit the scientists weren't there for, and I'm really only concerned with how they were fooled. Actually I'm in the process of trying to track them down to ask them if the documentary went as swimmingly as it is seems to have gone.
Click to expand...

The use of a mini Tesla Coil device hasn't been ruled out, but the trick could be even more simple than that.
 
somnum said:
And if you really want to get down to it, when have I said that anything he has done is magic? Have you been paying attention to my line of reasoning in the slightest? I think that whether he can do this or not, it is almost certainly not magic, and will have a physiological basis.
Click to expand...
Excuse me?

No - reason does not work that way. If he cannot do this, then it is neither magic nor physiological, and there is no need to make vague speculations.

If he can do this, and can demonstrate the ability under controlled conditions, then and only then can we start to think about whether it's magic or physiological. So far there is no evidence that he can actually do anything he claims to be able to do.
 
somnum said:
I think that whether he can do this or not, it is almost certainly not magic, and will have a physiological basis.
Click to expand...

Let's see if I can give this a shot-

We can essentially categorise Chang's abilities under three headings - novel physics/biology; paranormal/magic; trickery.

In this case you've more or less asked which category we can put Chang into, coming from a scientific angle. Now, science does not deal with certainties. It deals with logical, internal consistency and confidence inspired by the weight of evidence. So while it's impossible to dismiss with absolute certainty any one category, it is possible to suspend two of them until new evidence arises.

Everything Chang does can be demonstrated as trickery. In other words, his actions can be replicated and therefore explained using sleight of hand, misdirection and plain old foolery.

Novel physics and biology might also explain it. However, this explanation would demand far more observations to remain viable. For instance, why is it that whenever similar situations (involving chi) are tested, the abilities disappear? Sure, Chang could be the real deal. But there is currently no reason to suspect so.

As for paranormal explanations, these can be discounted from the start since we've stipulated we're discussing this from a scientific perspective. Magic has a habit of evaporating the moment it's brought into the presence of logic and reason.

In short, we know trickery exists. We have ample evidence of it. On testing phenomena that has been explained previously using chi, it is consistently found that deceit or misperception is responsible. We can induce that in the absence of any other information, this case is no different.

Is that the final word? Most certainly not. However, for the discussion to progress, evidence that cannot be explained by the 'trickery' hypothesis must arise. Otherwise it is the most useful explanation.

Athon
 
Stray Cat said:
Though I believe "Wax on, Wax off" is a valid training technique :D
Click to expand...

Yeah, for waxing floors. When was the last time you ever heard of someone in a real-life confrontation using one of those pretty open-handed sweeping karate blocks? The speed and reflexes it would require to intercept a full-speed punch delivered by even an untrained person who wants to hurt you using such a technique would be astronomical.

Best thing Miyagi ever said was - "Best defense...No be there!"

*twists little tiny drum*
 
arthwollipot said:
Excuse me?

No - reason does not work that way. If he cannot do this, then it is neither magic nor physiological, and there is no need to make vague speculations.

If he can do this, and can demonstrate the ability under controlled conditions, then and only then can we start to think about whether it's magic or physiological. So far there is no evidence that he can actually do anything he claims to be able to do.
Click to expand...

Since we're going to be technical...if he can't do it, it is still logically possible that happened and is magic. So hah, e-peen of logic is larger than yours!
 
somnum said:
Since we're going to be technical...if he can't do it, it is still logically possible that happened and is magic. So hah, e-peen of logic is larger than yours!
Click to expand...

Uhh, what?

You keep using that word.

I do not think it means what you think it does.
 
athon said:
Let's see if I can give this a shot-

We can essentially categorise Chang's abilities under three headings - novel physics/biology; paranormal/magic; trickery.

In this case you've more or less asked which category we can put Chang into, coming from a scientific angle. Now, science does not deal with certainties. It deals with logical, internal consistency and confidence inspired by the weight of evidence. So while it's impossible to dismiss with absolute certainty any one category, it is possible to suspend two of them until new evidence arises.

Everything Chang does can be demonstrated as trickery. In other words, his actions can be replicated and therefore explained using sleight of hand, misdirection and plain old foolery.

Novel physics and biology might also explain it. However, this explanation would demand far more observations to remain viable. For instance, why is it that whenever similar situations (involving chi) are tested, the abilities disappear? Sure, Chang could be the real deal. But there is currently no reason to suspect so.

As for paranormal explanations, these can be discounted from the start since we've stipulated we're discussing this from a scientific perspective. Magic has a habit of evaporating the moment it's brought into the presence of logic and reason.

In short, we know trickery exists. We have ample evidence of it. On testing phenomena that has been explained previously using chi, it is consistently found that deceit or misperception is responsible. We can induce that in the absence of any other information, this case is no different.

Is that the final word? Most certainly not. However, for the discussion to progress, evidence that cannot be explained by the 'trickery' hypothesis must arise. Otherwise it is the most useful explanation.

Athon
Click to expand...

Well since I'm not a regular forum member I'm really not sure how this trickery is dealt with. Could someone please explain it to me? How is he creating these charges and the scientists miss them?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom