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Jogging in Georgia while black.

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SuburbanTurkey said:
I think you're projecting a lot of clarity of mind to someone who was probably reacting more on instinct than anything. His killers had a pretty clear understanding of what they thought they were doing, but I see no way for Arbery to have any understanding of what was happening to him other than he was being targeted by dangerous strangers for reasons unknown.

Arbery, having not actually committed any serious crime beyond minor trespass, probably did not understand why these goons wanted to apprehend him. "flabby rednecks" have a long history of committing atrocious hate crimes against black people, and despite the image of ineffectual redneck, these goofy looking people are often quite dangerous, as was the case here.

You seem sure that Arbery was "calling their bluff", but it just as easily could have been an instinctual response of someone being chased and finding himself at close range with an armed attacker. In fact, I think this is much more likely than the idea that Arbery was so full of swagger he assumed disarming his shotgun wielding assailant were an easy task.


I think Arbery's actions show him to be quite brave in the face of unlawful aggression, but that doesn't mean he wasn't experiencing intense fear right up until his murder.
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Again, I'm not sure this was the case one way or the other. I think it's plausible enough, fits the facts and all. Wouldn't bet a dollar without knowing more about the actors and actions. What's surprising is the pushback against the idea that Arbery was confident instead of fearful. It's weird, the ideas about people that posters don't want challenged.
 
Cavemonster said:
My preexisting opinion of folks who chase down others in pickup trucks is that they might intend harm.

If you hang out in a crowd where you're routinely chased down by angry people in pickup trucks who are likely armed, you may have worked out some well timed and elegant exit strategies. I'd also be questioning your life choices if such a thing happens to you with regularity.

For the vast majority of people in the US, such an occurance is not common, especially in suburban neighborhoods, and a reaction of "What the hell is going on?" is probably a more reasonable expectation.
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Being in trucks makes them far more laughable, to a certain way of thinking. I'd be way more concerned about a group of men surrounding me on foot. Like exponentially more concerned. A couple wheezing butterballs who need motor vehicles to keep up with you is kind of pathetic. It's why I could see Arbery initially viewing them with contempt, not fear of the Great White Man. Different starting assumptions about people. If no guns were in sight yet, Arbery could surely see them as a bunch of posturing dickheads, not a menace to his life.
 
Cavemonster said:
All of this is predicated on the idea that if someone doesn't cover the ground that a top athlete in top form might, then that's reason to believe they were cunningly on the attack rather than fearful for their life.

Which is kookoo bananas.

"If they were really a victim here, they would have acted in **way that someone's imagination dictates victims should act**"

We see that in victims of rape or sexual assault. If he were really raping you, you would have fought back harder etc etc etc.

The reality is that whether or not someone behaves as a perfect victim tells you little about their mindset. Constructing fictions about how you imagine a victim should have acted or what you think someone not fitting that mold was really trying to do isn't skepticism. It's masturbatory character assassination. In this case of a murdered man. One of a series of murdered men who are over and over raked over the coals in the same way.

I find it distasteful and having nothing to do with a critical thinking approach to understanding the situation.
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:thumbsup:

Best post in this thread for a long, long time!
 
Cavemonster said:
You are mistaken. I have been informed that my take was:
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You don't think the Best post could also be really, really strange? Exclusive, are they? Is your imagination really that limited?

I'm seeing more and more that I'm just on a totally different wavelength from a lot of posters here.
 
Thermal said:
You don't think the Best post could also be really, really strange? Exclusive, are they? Is your imagination really that limited?

I'm seeing more and more that I'm just on a totally different wavelength from a lot of posters here.
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I didn't get the impression that you meant "strange" in a sense that was consistent with "best".

If you agree with smartcooky that it was a high quality post, thanks!
You have a very strange way of communicating that.
 
Cavemonster said:
I didn't get the impression that you meant "strange" in a sense that was consistent with "best".

If you agree with smartcooky that it was a high quality post, thanks!
You have a very strange way of communicating that.
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The Best way.

(Thanks for the set up)
 
Thermal said:
Again, I'm not sure this was the case one way or the other. I think it's plausible enough, fits the facts and all. Wouldn't bet a dollar without knowing more about the actors and actions. What's surprising is the pushback against the idea that Arbery was confident instead of fearful. It's weird, the ideas about people that posters don't want challenged.
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Anyone "confident" while charging a man with a shotgun unarmed would have to be certifiably insane. Arbery may have assessed that this was the correct action, or even just acted on instinct when faced with an imminently deadly situation, but I very much doubt he was "confident" about anything once this trio of murderers started stalking him.
 
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Thermal, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to get at. Let's try this: What do you think actually happened? Arbery lunged at his attacker because... he was annoyed? Because he thought it would make for a fun story to tell his friends?

I'm still trying to figure out why running times have been a lengthy topic of debate.
 
I Am The Scum said:
Thermal, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to get at. Let's try this: What do you think actually happened? Arbery lunged at his attacker because... he was annoyed? Because he thought it would make for a fun story to tell his friends?

I'm still trying to figure out why running times have been a lengthy topic of debate.
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They are a useful distraction to bog down the thread.

Standard tactics.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Anyone "confident" while charging a man with a shotgun unarmed would have to be certifiably insane. Arbery may have assessed that this was the correct action, or even just acted on instinct when faced with an imminently deadly situation, but I very much doubt he was "confident" about anything once this trio of murderers started stalking him.
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I'm starting to wonder if the victim would be afforded more benefit of the doubt if his, er... characteristics were different.
 
Thermal said:
Being in trucks makes them far more laughable, to a certain way of thinking. I'd be way more concerned about a group of men surrounding me on foot. Like exponentially more concerned. A couple wheezing butterballs who need motor vehicles to keep up with you is kind of pathetic. It's why I could see Arbery initially viewing them with contempt, not fear of the Great White Man. Different starting assumptions about people. If no guns were in sight yet, Arbery could surely see them as a bunch of posturing dickheads, not a menace to his life.
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Makes sense, may have had so much contempt for them that he didn’t think they were worth his time and decided to run away out of disgust. I mean, Jesus Christ, they weren’t even on foot!
 
dirtywick said:
Indeed, it’s already been pointed out that hanging around a construction site is pretty suspicious.
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To be honest, I was rather surprised when so many posters said that they routinely wander around construction sites. Where I live, every construction site I've seen is fenced and locked, so that random passers-by without hard hats and safety boots can't enter the site and wander unchecked. If I did enter through an unlocked gate I'd be spotted and immediately ejected by the construction workers.
 
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arthwollipot said:
To be honest, I was rather surprised when so many posters said that they routinely wander around construction sites. Where I live, every construction site I've seen is fenced and locked, so that random passers-by without hard hats and safety boots can't enter the site and wander unchecked. If I did enter through an unlocked gate I'd be spotted and immediately ejected by the construction workers.
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On the other hand I have no idea why old people just loiter outside the barricades and look at an unfinished building. I mean, yeah, construction can be interesting as in, you look at it as you stroll by...but I wouldn't stick around.
 
Belz... said:
On the other hand I have no idea why old people just loiter outside the barricades and look at an unfinished building. I mean, yeah, construction can be interesting as in, you look at it as you stroll by...but I wouldn't stick around.
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There can be a certain amount of competence porn in watching experienced construction workers do their thing, but most of the time it goes so slowly that it just takes too long to sit around watching.
 
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