Squeegee Beckenheim
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No worries.
Jogging in Georgia while black.
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No worries.
I note again that if Travis had been holding the shotgun at his side, it would have been very difficult for Arbery to grab it. He might have pushed or punched Travis, but to grab the barrel Travis had to have it raised and pointed at him. That by itself is a crime. The only person defending himself here is Arbery.
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
And of course some of us recognise it and try to recognise and correct for our biases and spot them in others like us. I think that's what some describe as 'hating their own race'.
We all divide the world into "us vs. them," and the clues and cues might be obvious, like race, gender. ethnicity, height and weight, or more subtle, like clothing, accents and speech patterns, not to mention things like favorite sports teams or political orientation. The question is how we respond; we can choose to treat everybody decently and respectfully, even if we wouldn't select them as friends, and not jump to unsupported conclusions.
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eeyore1954
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This has nothing to do with whether a couple of people murdered this man but...
Other fun facts (at least according to Wikipedia)
Botswana homicide per 100,000 is 15. Ranked 27th
United States is 5 Ranked 94th
Botswana rapes per 100,000 was 92.5 2nd among reporting countries
United States 27.3 was 10th among reporting countries (pretty bad)
Makes me wonder how the Global Piece Index is calculated and what it is meant to measure.
You can prove anything using statistics.
Skeptic Tank
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One thing I hope you're factoring in is that some countries are not very good at keeping / tracking / reporting statistics on much of anything.
CaptainHowdy
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Arbury was shot in the chest, not the side or the back. So you admit that Arbury coming towards Travis McMichael.
You say he was at least five feet away when the first shot was fired. I don't think that's accurate but I'll go with that. So you're saying he was approximately two, maybe three, steps away from Travis when the first shot was fired. If Arbery was casually walking, he'd be about two seconds from being able to physically attack Travis. Since Arbery was running towards him, Travis had even less time to react. Travis showed remarkable restraint--perhaps too much considering the struggle for the shotgun that ensued,
And he wasn't shot.
And he wasn't shot.
And he wasn't shot.
He ran around the truck the fourth time and instead of continuing to run down the road in the same direction, he made a 45 degree turn at the front of the truck and ran towards McMichael. That's when he was shot.
This is about as clear a case of self-defense as you'll find. But systemic racism in the United States will guarantee the McMichaels will be convicted because it's de facto illegal for white people to defend themselves against non-whites.
There are higher resolution copies of Arbury assaulting Travis out there. I hadn't seen some of those other videos of Arbury entering and then running away from the house--not that it is relevant.
If you believe that, you're no better than the McMichaels. They had no right to confront Arbery at all! He tried to run once, and they chased him and cut him off. He tried to run twice, and they chased him and cut him off. He tried to run three times, and they chased him and cut him off. And when he tried to run a fourth time, they chased him, cut him off and pointed a shotgun at him; and when he resisted they killed him.
Yes, it's about as clear a case of self-defense as you'll find; but not the way you mean.
Of course, you did not see Travis going in front of truck towards Arbery with shotgun pointed at him.
Travis can be seen standing on the left side of the road with the driver side door open and then moves towards the front of the truck when Arbery runs along the right side of the truck.
Travis just had to pull the trigger which he did. Travis was already waiting for Arbery as soon as he passed on the right side of the truck.
Yeah, he was shot three times. There is no evidence so far that the McMichaels did anything to avoid his death.
No. It looks like a clear cut case of murder. When Greg called 911 all he said was there was a black guy running down the street while he was just about to be gunned down by Travis.
Neither did the McMichaels see him entering the house on the day they gunned him down.
johnny karate
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Yeah, I can’t think of a single instance in which a white person killed a black person and got away with it.
I’d say you live in an alternate reality, but alt-reality is probability more apropos.
DevilsAdvocate
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Let's look at what you said:
Reality: Untrue.
Reality: Untrue.
Reality: Untrue.
Reality: Untrue.
I still don't know what you are getting at. Is it that the McMichaels could not have known whether Arbery was legally criminally trespassing rather trespassing in a general sense? Or you think the videos are fake. Or that they faked the 2/11 incident. Or...I'm not sure.
In regards to the issue of trespassing versus criminally trespassing, the issue asked was whether the McMichaels killed Arbery solely because he was black. I do not think that was the sole reason and that they the fact that they knew that Arbery had been on English's property when English did not want him on that property (whether you want to call that trespassing or not) was a significant factor in addition to race.
Meadmaker
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(Not addressed to me, but...…)
Yes. And he had a shotgun pointed at his chest.
.
You are correct. Travis was defending himself. There's one problem with that as a defense against the murder charge. If you illegally initiate a confrontation, you cannot use self defense as a justification for any violent actions you undertake. You lose the right to claim self defense in that case.
What you and others consistently overlook is that Travis pointed a gun at Mahmoud Arbery. That's illegal. He did something illegal, and someone ended up dead. That's felony murder.
For what it's worth, I don't really like "felony murder" statutes, but they are on the books whether I like them or not.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
As you'll find if, just picking a random example, you try to get information on police shootings in the USA.
Dave
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Really?
If an armed robber kills a security guard in the course of robbing an armoured car, you don't think the robber ought to be charged with murder?
If a burglar kills a home owner the course of robbing his house, you don't think the burglar ought to be charged with murder?
If a person beats someone to death in the course of committing an aggravated assault, you don't think the person ought to be charged with murder?
If a rapist kills their victim during the course of attempting to restrain the victim, you don't think the rapist ought to be charged with murder?
These are all killings committed during the commission of a felony.... no charges for the killings?
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No, felony murder is when someone is killed by someone else during a violent crime in which the defendant was a participant: You wait outside in the getaway car when your partner does the robbery, you're grabbing the money when your partner shoots the clerk, etc. A criminal can even be charged with felony murder if his partner is killed by a victim defending himself during a crime. The reason that some people have reservations about it is that the defendant didn't directly cause the death or necessarily intend it.
https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/homicide/felony-murder/
In this case one could argue that Greg M. didn't intend to kill Arbery, but he actively participated in the crimes that resulted in his death.
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
OK, so let me rephrase
If an armed robber (who has an accomplice) kills a security guard in the course of robbing an armoured car, you don't think the accomplice ought to be charged with murder?
If a burglar (who has an accomplice) kills a home owner the course of robbing his house, you don't think the accomplice ought to be charged with murder?
If a person (who has an accomplice) beats someone to death in the course of committing an aggravated assault, you don't think the accomplice ought to be charged with murder?
If a rapist (who has an accomplice) kills their victim during the course of attempting to restrain the victim, you don't think the accomplice ought to be charged with murder?
These are all killings committed during the commission of a felony.... no murder charges for the accomplices?
We don't have felony murder statutes as such here, but what we have is probably the equivalent.
Crimes Act 1961 Section 43 Part 4 - Parties to the commission of offences
Section 66 Parties to offences
(1) Every one is a party to and guilty of an offence who—
(a) actually commits the offence; or
(b) does or omits an act for the purpose of aiding any person to commit the offence; or
(c) abets any person in the commission of the offence; or
(d) incites, counsels, or procures any person to commit the offence.
(2) Where 2 or more persons form a common intention to prosecute any unlawful purpose, and to assist each other therein, each of them is a party to every offence committed by any one of them in the prosecution of the common purpose if the commission of that offence was known to be a probable consequence of the prosecution of the common purpose.
For example: gang of five armed robbers hold up a bank, and one of them kills a bank teller or a customer, they are all charged with murder.
FWIW, I have no problem with this Law. If the equivalent of this in US Law means that Greg is just as culpable as his son for what happened, then murder charges are as appropriate for Greg as they are for Travis.
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Shadowdweller
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No, actually, it isn't. As your own source specifies: Felony murder is simply human-killing that occurs during the course of another (dangerous) felony regardless of intent, accident, or premeditation; upgraded to first degree murder depending on state. Includes both killings commited by a participant in a felony AS WELL AS those committed solely by their compatriots.
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Squeegee Beckenheim
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And there are other majority black countries that rank much lower than the US. So you're not actually invalidating my point there at all.
You don't actually have to wonder, given that it's explained in detail at the link I provided.
I was more falsifying something than proving something.
Squeegee Beckenheim
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That much, at least, is true. Arbrey attacking McMichaels was a clear case of self-defence.
catsmate
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Maybe he likes the taste of silver?
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