Jogging in Georgia while black.

[pgwenthold]

Go back and re-read. It was not the mother who needs to be charged.

I read it as sarcasm (my response was vague enough). I thought it was funny.

 

[William Parcher]

From Arbery's perspective, I'm going to say the argument is "when chased down and attacked by armed men, you should just give up without a fight." Which is an abysmally dumb argument.

I can pretty much guarantee that if a couple of armed obviously-not-police men in a truck accost me while I'm on foot, I'm going to run like a bunny. If they then cut me off with their truck and come out of the vehicle brandishing a shotgun... I'm going to do everything in my power to try to take that shotgun away from him instead of just meekly waiting to be murdered by a crazy person.

I would be happy to give up my wallet and phone to armed robbers. If someone is coming at me with an exposed gun I am going to assume robbery. Never fight them. Cooperate and give them what they ask for. Your life is not worth it. Live to see another day.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I must agree with Bogative here. We simply don't have all of the facts.

All that we know is that there was a confrontation, and the "victim" ran away, prompting at least two people with guns (unknown whether they already had the guns, or were retrieved after the first confrontation) to get into a pickup, and follow him, eventually blocking his path with their truck, with one getting out of the car while displaying a weapon. Also, prompting someone in a second car to follow while taking video of what was about to happen.

At that point, we know that the runner attacked the man, who shot him. Or maybe his friend shot him from the bed of the pickup.

I'm generally a fan of waiting for facts, because well, frankly I don't trust media spin. In this case, however, we've got the statements made by the assailants.

In their own report they say they saw him jogging past and thought he might be the person who'd been breaking in. They went inside, armed themselves, and took off after him in a truck, while they called the cops. By their own admission, they chased him in a truck, cut him off, and when he ran the other way went after him again. By their own admission, the driver got out of the truck with a shotgun and went toward the victim, who at that point changed tactics and tried to wrestle the shotgun away.

Their own version of events doesn't support any speculation about prior confrontations or any rational excuse for their behavior. Their own version of events does not support any reasonable person's view of "self defense" on the part of the shooter(s).

 

[pgwenthold]

From Arbery's perspective, I'm going to say the argument is "when chased down and attacked by armed men, you should just give up without a fight." Which is an abysmally dumb argument.

I can pretty much guarantee that if a couple of armed obviously-not-police men in a truck accost me while I'm on foot, I'm going to run like a bunny. If they then cut me off with their truck and come out of the vehicle brandishing a shotgun... I'm going to do everything in my power to try to take that shotgun away from him instead of just meekly waiting to be murdered by a crazy person.

Exactly.

There is all this discussion about the motivation of the guys in the truck, and whether they were justified in making a "citizen's arrest" etc. But from the victim perspective, none of that matters. There was no crime being committed, so he had no idea why they were chasing him. All he knew is that armed white guys in a truck are chasing him.

On what grounds does he need to submit to their "authority"?

 

[Emily's Cat]

My first post was a way of making fun of Bogative's response, because although we don't know a great many things, I think we know enough to draw some very easy conclusions, and although I am not a lawyer, I think I understand the basic legal questions here.

I rescind my comment to you. I didn't read it as you making fun of bogative, it seemed like you were agreeing with him. Chalk it up to yet one more instance where I fail to infer the appropriate sarcasm from written form alone...

 

[Meadmaker]

I rescind my comment to you. I didn't read it as you making fun of bogative, it seemed like you were agreeing with him. Chalk it up to yet one more instance where I fail to infer the appropriate sarcasm from written form alone...

No worries. You weren't alone. I thought I was being obvious, but, obviously (pun intended) I wasn't.

 

[William Parcher]

There was no crime being committed, so he had no idea why they were chasing him. All he knew is that armed white guys in a truck are chasing him.

On what grounds does he need to submit to their "authority"?

He probably thought that they were trying to rob him. If it was strictly for murder he may have thought that they would have done that right away or from across the street.

But in a robbery you shouldn't run or try to grab the gun. Just give them your money and phone. That's what they want.

 

[pgwenthold]

He probably thought that they were trying to rob him. If it was strictly for murder he may have thought that they would have done that right away or from across the street.

But in a robbery you shouldn't run or try to grab the gun. Just give them your money and phone. That's what they want.

That's a nice, white perspective.

How does it work for a black guy in Georgia?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh, and you say the 911 caller was lying, I assume? Arbery was just out jogging, he wasn't in the empty house, and it wasn't an 'ongoing thing'? How do you know he was lying to 911 dispatch?

Just FYI, the 911 call that you're referencing was from a different night. It's the "reports of break ins" that they were referencing. They are the ones who reported a "break in", which wasn't actually a break in, but could reasonably be construed as trespassing. It was a person being nosy and checking out a partially built house. At this point, there's not even confirmation that the person they saw checking out the house under construction was actually Arbery. And even if it was... he wasn't breaking in. And that's the only report of anything resembling a break-in in the couple of months prior to them arming themselves and chasing a jogger down the road in a truck.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't understand. Can people in parts of the USA actually walk around and/or accost people with a loaded shotgun in their hands like they're in Mad Max or something? I'd assume this to be a pretty serious crime even without the killing, but I guess I'm wrong?

In many parts of the US, open carry of long guns is allowed. Some states allow open carry of any firearm. Accosting people with firearms, however, is NOT legal in any state to the best of my knowledge.

 

[William Parcher]

That's a nice, white perspective.

How does it work for a black guy in Georgia?

This doesn't make any sense at all. No matter what color you are or what state you are in - you give your stuff to the robber.

 

[pgwenthold]

This doesn't make any sense at all. No matter what color you are or what state you are in - you give your stuff to the robber.

Why would he assume they are trying to rob him?

YOU would assume they are trying to rob you, but then again, you have not grown up as a black person in Georgia, so that is a perspective from your white privilege.

I do not presume that my perspective would apply in that situation.

 

[pgwenthold]

In many parts of the US, open carry of long guns is allowed. Some states allow open carry of any firearm. Accosting people with firearms, however, is NOT legal in any state to the best of my knowledge.

"Being chased by two guys with shotguns in a pickup" is a threat irrespective of any open carry laws.

 

[William Parcher]

Why would he assume they are trying to rob him?

YOU would assume they are trying to rob you, but then again, you have not grown up as a black person in Georgia, so that is a perspective from your white privilege.

I do not presume that my perspective would apply in that situation.

Being chased with a gun and no shooting? That's a robbery in progress.

 

[William Parcher]

Why would he assume they are trying to rob him?

YOU would assume they are trying to rob you, but then again, you have not grown up as a black person in Georgia, so that is a perspective from your white privilege.

I do not presume that my perspective would apply in that situation.

I didn't know that you are a black person living in Georgia. They say that we all learn something new every day.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It shouldn't have gone on for more than a brief comment or two. It went on and became 'tedious' because of others lying about the content/intent the posts.

...

I take an interest in self defense and fighting strategies, and am always interested in real-time testing. Here, it falls with something I've always advocated: don't rush a group of armed nuts when unarmed. There is a good time to run like hell to the sides, and this was one. We are not bulletproof.

Alright, I don't know you from Adam. I don't have any preformed bias as it relates to you. And I myself am frequently the cause of analysis paralysis that gets misunderstood.

I believe I get your point.

That said, however, it wasn't until just a couple of posts prior to this that I started to think that maybe you weren't defending the aggressors in this situation, and rationalizing the victim's death. Throughout the first several pages of this thread, you really didn't come across as if you were just tactically analyzing the actions taken.

So, from one ofttimes misunderstood poster to another, it might be worth re-reading your posts in this thread with an eye to how other people might see them. Especially when the readers don't have the benefit of the tone and inflection that you would apply to your statements.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I think the deceased attacked them because he worried they were going to get authorities and get him exposed as involved in crimes that day or previously.

I don’t think he thought for a moment they were robbers or killers. He saw them as Trayvon saw Zimmerman: busy body nosy snitches summoning the cops.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Per your own link upthread. People who do the recordings on their devices tend to be the only ones who can post them. I mean, unless his...what, phone got stolen?

Or are you suggesting police leaked it, or what?

Spouse, friend he showed it to, or maybe he even felt ashamed about it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I would be happy to give up my wallet and phone to armed robbers. If someone is coming at me with an exposed gun I am going to assume robbery. Never fight them. Cooperate and give them what they ask for. Your life is not worth it. Live to see another day.

Robbery, sure. I'm inclined to think that a truck chasing me, cutting me off, then an armed person jumping out of the truck at me is not just interested in taking my wallet.

 

[pgwenthold]

I didn't know that you are a black person living in Georgia.

I knew you were going to say this, but that is because you are being defensive instead of paying attention.

I have never said anything about what he should have thought. You are the one who insists that he should treat it like he is being robbed. I make no assumption that it would look to him like a robbery, and therefore do assume that he should react as such.

I am not the one claiming that he behaved improperly based on my privileged perspective of what I think he should be thinking.