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Big, big difference.


Video.

Nah. We had the recording of Zimmerman literally chasing Martin down, and 911 recordings of Martin yelling for help. Yes, it was "just" audio, but still.

We also had his reenactment of Martin seeing his gun, which Zimmemrman was lying on top of.
 
Well, yes. When threatened, there's the well known "fight or flight" response. It's not so much a choice as a reaction. He picked "fight". That didn't turn out so well, but we'll never know how "flight" would have turned out. You can't outrun a bullet.

He tried that, hard to outrun a truck.
 
"Oh noes, here's a picture of him with his middle fingers raised! Thus, he must have been a violent thug that attacked these two innocent white guys, please ignore the recording of him trying to escape! He must have run away, and then ran back and punched them in the face from behind!"

Expect some minor discipline issue from his time in High School to be brought up as certain proof of 'wanton thuggery'.

But, remember, you have to cry for the poor southern white man first!
 
I have noticed an interesting kind of apologetics for patently **** and or dumb behaviour lately. Saw it with Trump’s disinfectant comments where the most hyperbolic or pedantically literal interpretations of the event are attacked ferociously and the clear facts of the case ignored. We see it here too. Absolutely bad takes should be held to account but I am taking issue with a dishonest propaganda game.

There's an obscure Monty Python sketch from one of their later seasons where a bunch of 19th century poets are meeting with the Prince but they end up insulting him several times, but then try to get one of the other poets to explain how the insult is actually praise, until one of them calls the Prince being like a Dose of the Clap and the final poet just gives up. This is what comes to mind when I see these increasingly pathetic justifications for outright lynching and horrid decisions by the President.

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/oscar.php
 
That's awful! Who said such a horrible thing?

*scans thread*

Hm. Nobody said such a thing. Closest I can find is when you asked me:



And I responded:



Nothing to deserve a horribly unjust thing happening. But it might happen anyway. Especially if you run straight into them and try to wrestle a shotgun from one.

Oh, and you say the 911 caller was lying, I assume? Arbery was just out jogging, he wasn't in the empty house, and it wasn't an 'ongoing thing'? How do you know he was lying to 911 dispatch?

Does the lying about other posters bother you at all? Seems like it should.

For pete's sake, you even quoted yourself!!!!

Don't run down the street towards them unarmed and attack them with your bare hands. Something predictably bad might happen.


Why don't you just say it was because of what he was wearing?
 
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Going out on a limb: maybe no worse than the outcome chosen? No?




I would think so. But the State of Georgia seems to allow it. Open carry laws, and the guys were legal. Hard to see on the video, but it looks like shotgun boy is holding level and perpendicular to Arbery when he runs up to the truck. The first time the gun points in Arbery's direction is when they meet at the front of the truck, when it was go time for both of them.

And that's the only defense I can imagine for them. They have to say, "We were not threatening him by blocking his path and drawing our guns, because our guns were not pointed at him."

I think it will be a tough sell to a jury.
 
See, you could not be more mistaken. This story has everything to do with trespassing.

Arbery's trespassing on the day of, and trespassing previously on video, led to two individuals independently identifying him as the trespasser previously caught on video. If he would have chose not to trespass, he could have continued his routine jog through the neighborhood like he had been doing for years, according to his mother and neighbors, but he didn't. His trespassing precipitated a confrontation and now he's dead because of it.

I'm pretty sure their lawyers will advise against bringing that up in court, because it is utterly irrelevant to anything except their state of mind, but their state of mind won't justify their actions in the eyes of the law.

They threatened the jogger with a gun. That is illegal except under certain narrow conditions, none of which existed during the confrontation. That makes them criminals. Generally, when someone commits a crime, and, during commission of the crime a person end up dead, the criminal is held culpable for the death.

Unless they can convince the prosecutor or the jury that they didn't actually threaten the jogger, they don't have a legal leg to stand on.
 
I don't understand. Can people in parts of the USA actually walk around and/or accost people with a loaded shotgun in their hands like they're in Mad Max or something? I'd assume this to be a pretty serious crime even without the killing, but I guess I'm wrong?

You are correct, although correct with an asterisk.

It is indeed perfectly legal to walk around an awful lot of parts of the USA with a loaded shotgun.

It ceases being legal if you use that shotgun to threaten someone. The specific crime involved is named differently in some jurisdictions, but the common name for it is "assault with a deadly weapon". (The crime of assault occurs when a person is threatened, not when a person is attacked.)

Generally, if you "accost" someone, and during the course of accosting them you display a weapon, prosecutors and juries will consider it a threat, even if the gun is not specifically pointed in their direction.
 
Legally though? Does anyone of the locals bat an eye? This feels so bizzare to me. If I travelled to the US (Georgia for example) and saw someone with a gun in their hand, my first thought would be that a mass shooting is imminent and that I need to get the hell out of there.

See the pictures of the protestors at the Michigan capital last week. They were posing with their loaded weapons outside the door of the legislative chamber. All perfectly legal.


ETA: Which in my opinion is completely nuts, but …..God Bless America.
 
You are correct, although correct with an asterisk.

It is indeed perfectly legal to walk around an awful lot of parts of the USA with a loaded shotgun.

It ceases being legal if you use that shotgun to threaten someone. The specific crime involved is named differently in some jurisdictions, but the common name for it is "assault with a deadly weapon". (The crime of assault occurs when a person is threatened, not when a person is attacked.)

Generally, if you "accost" someone, and during the course of accosting them you display a weapon, prosecutors and juries will consider it a threat, even if the gun is not specifically pointed in their direction.

The concept of brandishing is well understood in the criminal system, even in states where open carry is legal. Intimidating someone through the display of a weapon is understood as an assault, like you say.

Brandishing includes a variety of behaviors short of actually pointing a gun at someone. Actions that a reasonable person would understand as a intimidating display of a weapon is considered brandishing. Something like simply moving a hand to the butt of a holstered pistol, or, I dunno, demanding someone to stop while holding a shotgun at the ready, is well understood to be a brandishing of weapons.

Setting up a roadblock for the sole purpose of confronting him while openly armed is something the DA totally elides in his explanation of not bringing charges. He frames it as inexplicable event that Arbery might attack the armed man, not mentioning that this was the second time that they had attempted to block Arbery with their truck and stop him. Shotgun man got out because the first time, Arbery kept running.

The police report, by the words of the killers themselves, is quite clear that they forced this confrontation. https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/6915-arbery-shooting/b52fa09cdc974b970b79/optimized/full.pdf
 
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The concept of brandishing is well understood in the criminal system, even in states where open carry is legal. Intimidating someone through the display of a weapon is understood as an assault, like you say.

Brandishing includes a variety of behaviors short of actually pointing a gun at someone. Actions that a reasonable person would understand as a intimidating display of a weapon is considered brandishing. Something like simply moving a hand to the butt of a holstered pistol, or, I dunno, demanding someone to stop while holding a shotgun at the ready, is well understood to be a brandishing of weapons.

Setting up a roadblock for the sole purpose of confronting him while openly armed is something the DA totally elides in his explanation of not bringing charges. He frames it as inexplicable event that Arbery might attack the armed man, not mentioning that this was the second time that they had attempted to block Arbery with their truck and stop him. Shotgun man got out because the first time, Arbery kept running.

The police report, by the words of the killers themselves, is quite clear that they forced this confrontation. https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/6915-arbery-shooting/b52fa09cdc974b970b79/optimized/full.pdf

If they are allowed to force the confrontation and allowed to use guns in the process of a citizens arrest, then is it still brandishing?
 
Youtube link to the video.

It's hard to tell, but playing it back at 0.25x speed, it appears that McMichael takes aim at Arbery as he's running down the road, before Arbery veers off the road and before they get into the scuffle. Starting around 6 seconds mark.

That takes the instigation of violence well before Arbery charges and might explain why Arbery would suddenly change course into the shoulder, and why he might feel the need to fight in the following moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIve50vSeLQ

This frame looks like a man with the shotgun raised to me. It's too grainy to see the gun, but his arms seem to be holding something in a firing stance. Arberry is still several yards away and is jogging down the middle of the road.

https://youtu.be/fIve50vSeLQ?t=7
 
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Again either you try to sell some insane idea that the guy had some legal/moral/logical responsibility to surrender himself to the armed civilians, admit that this just straight up murder (without pointless "okay but first we have to define the exact kind of murder" for no reason that matters), or start writing insane fan fiction to create alternative universes to justify it.
 
Youtube link to the video.

It's hard to tell, but playing it back at 0.25x speed, it appears that McMichael takes aim at Arbery as he's running down the road, before Arbery veers off the road and before they get into the scuffle. Starting around 6 seconds mark.

That takes the instigation of violence well before Arbery charges and might explain why Arbery would suddenly change course into the shoulder, and why he might feel the need to fight in the following moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIve50vSeLQ

This frame looks like a man with the shotgun raised to me. It's too grainy to see the gun, but his arms seem to be holding something in a firing stance. Arberry is still several yards away and is jogging down the middle of the road.

https://youtu.be/fIve50vSeLQ?t=7
The video has been removed from youtube. (Inappropriate or offensive to some viewers.)
 
The video has been removed from youtube. (Inappropriate or offensive to some viewers.)

It may require login for age verification.

It's embedded in this article and is still working for me without logging in, this might work.

https://www.gpbnews.org/post/leaked-video-deadly-shooting-coastal-georgia-sparks-national-outrage

This shows him being shot, so be warned.

Edit. Turned the res up. You can see him raising the shotgun to the shoulder at 7 seconds, well before Arbery veers off the road.
Arbery veers off the road and the camera man loses the frame, likely because he is down range of a raised shotgun.

Arbery attacking him after this did not start the violent encounter, because the man was aiming a shotgun at him immediately prior.

Unambiguous.
 
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Again either you try to sell some insane idea that the guy had some legal/moral/logical responsibility to surrender himself to the armed civilians, admit that this just straight up murder (without pointless "okay but first we have to define the exact kind of murder" for no reason that matters), or start writing insane fan fiction to create alternative universes to justify it.

He can be justified in defending himself and the shooters can be justified in trying a citizens arrest, and it can still not be murder. There doesn't need to be a party at fault.
 
Again either you try to sell some insane idea that the guy had some legal/moral/logical responsibility to surrender himself to the armed civilians,

And I will say it again: white guys armed with shotguns chasing him in a pickup.

In what world is that NOT a threat? They weren't police, he wasn't committing a crime so they weren't stopping anything, they were chasing a black guy who was out jogging with shotguns.

In Georgia.

And he is supposed to just surrender?

Yeah, right.
 
Okay, here's a question I'm going to love watching the apologist twist and turn their fan fiction in on itself to explain.

How were most lynching not just simple "citizens arrests gone bad" by the arguments being put forth in this thread?
 
Sure if you're goal is to make murdering black people legal.

Okay, here's a question I'm going to love watching the apologist twist and turn their fan fiction in on itself to explain.

How were most lynching not just simple "citizens arrests gone bad" by the arguments being put forth in this thread?

Who says they weren't?
 
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