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A gun is a lethal weapon, brandishing is showing the intent to use a lethal weapon, the very act of brandishing it is to show intent to kill.
This is one I disagree with. When I was in the Navy we (submarine force) were taught to use escalation as a means of keeping the ship safe. Verbal orders, then brandishing, then using actual force.

Brandishing was something that happened prior to actually pulling the trigger. It was a matter of relaxing if the threat went away or escalating further if the threat kept coming towards us.
 
I would have thought that finding yourself being chased down the road by men with guns was the chilling part.

And the public outcry occurred because the public found the thought that the prosecutor who was friends with the murderers could unilaterally decide to not press charges to be "chilling."
 
No news yet of William Bryan, the third participant in the chase car.

Seems that felony murder might be in the offering. He was an accomplice.
 
Here is why I think these guys are going to be fine.

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

Reasonable in the law is unreasonable. For example, reasonable suspicion is sufficient for a Terry stop and does find a crime over 2/3rds of the time. Imagine being able to tell someone your suspicion is reasonable because it is only wrong 70% of the time.

https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

I think immediate knowledge is going to prove far more expansive than the very reasonable interpretations here.
 
The standards for "reasonable" and "probable" are such **** in this country that what they saw is going to be "correctly" interpreted as reasonable perception that they had firsthand knowledge of a crime.
No, because even so, the reasonable and probable relate to escape from a felony, which is not, as I recall, what the shooters themselves said was occurring. The citzens' arrest law does not include minor crimes like trespass, and does not allow the citizens to chase down people who are suspected of felonies in the past.
 
No matter what you think of the video or the event as you currently understand them, every decent person has to find the idea of murder charges being filed because of celebrity attention and public outcry chilling.

Yes it's chilling that there would need to be "celebrity attention and public outcry" for someone to face criminal charges for such an completely indefensible and outrageous case of homicide. Makes you wonder how many killings don't end up being prosecuted if something as terrible like this apparently didn't warrant prosecution.
 
No matter what you think of the video or the event as you currently understand them, every decent person has to find the idea of murder charges being filed because of celebrity attention and public outcry chilling.

I guess I'm not decent. I didn't see anything in that video that would justify not doing a proper investigation, as opposed to the good ole boys method.

A man, clearly out for a jog, in broad daylight, attacked because he "fit the description" of some burglar? A burglar wearing high visibility clothing? Had he managed to steal anything, how was he planning to abscond with any loot? He wasn't even packing a backpack.

They weren't charged because of celebrity attention and public outcry. They were charged because the evidence shows they should be. Just because the first line of justice failed, due to them being buddies with the DA, doesn't mean that Justice is complete. The attention and public outcry shone a light on an injustice, the bastardization of justice, for a man out for a jog. Also, their justification is, putting it politely, ****.

Were I his friend or family, I'd be screaming as loud as I could for someone honest to investigate. I don't have to now, because that has already started. Not sure why, or how, that is a problem or even scary. Before you take a life of someone, be damn sure you can justify it to the world. A small price to pay, being investigated for taking a life.
 
Regarding that "tool, possibly a hammer".

A brief digression. There is the letter of the law, and there is the way juries actually behave, and how real people judge things. By the letter of the law, the possible existence of a hammer makes no difference, nor does surveillance video from previous days. It just doesn't matter. You still have a case where people with no legal authority threatened someone and, as a direct result of that threat, someone ended up dead. By the letter of the law, they lose (absent some unforeseen new evidence that may be presented at a future time.)

And yet, most people, and possibly a jury, would look differently on the case if they discovered that Mr. Arbery was not in fact out on his daily jog when accosted by crazy people with guns. If they found out that Mr. Arbery was actually out stealing other people's stuff, or if he had been in the habit of doing so and he was running away to avoid prosecution, the sympathy level would go way up, even if by the letter of the law, it didn't matter.

I took a look at the video. I see something in the street. It's on the right side. At that point, Mr. Arbery was running on the left side of the road. The thing doesn't look much like a tool, much less a hammer. It certainly isn't recognizable as such, and he doesn't appear to have dropped anything. However, I'm sure internet sleuths will, in the next few days, examine and enlarge and process and do all sorts of things to help us determine whether or not he was carrying a hammer and dropped it during the pursuit.

My own inner narrative is still that there was a jogger, and some local yahoos saw a running black man and assumed it was the same black man that had once appeared on some surveillance video doing nothing suspicious at all except being black, and the yahoos decided they were the same guy, responsible for burglaries that never actually happened, and the rest is recorded on the video. That's what I think happened, but I remain open to other possibilities if evidence is presented. If evidence were presented that shows he was a thief, even if it was of tools at a construction site, I would be a lot more sympathetic toward the accused men.

ETA: And speaking of hypotheticals and maybes, we don't actually know that Mr. Arbery was even at the construction site. We know that a witness reported him there, but that's not the same thing. It's possible that the witness wasn't very close, saw the man obscured by the construction site, and assumed that he had gone onto those grounds. I'm sure internet sleuths will also check out that possibility. (I don't mean to be derisive of "internet sleuths". I could see myself doing that sort of thing, and I have in the past. Right at the moment, I'm not inclined to do it, but the weekend is coming up, so that could change.)
 
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Hand tools get left at construction sites a whole lot in Georgia? Doesn't seem like contractor policy for any company I know of. Any time there's a chance the site won't be secured or staffed tools tend to be collected.
 
Regarding that "tool, possibly a hammer".

...

I took a look at the video. I see something in the street. It's on the right side. At that point, Mr. Arbery was running on the left side of the road. The thing doesn't look much like a tool, much less a hammer. It certainly isn't recognizable as such, and he doesn't appear to have dropped anything. However, I'm sure internet sleuths will, in the next few days, examine and enlarge and process and do all sorts of things to help us determine whether or not he was carrying a hammer and dropped it during the pursuit.

Yes, this is getting into the world of JFK conspiracy whackos.

Now it's time to zoom in real close and I bet you can find that the jogger had an accomplice on the side of the road. Just look at that shadow, clearly an accomplice flashing a gang sign.

Don't fall for it - it's all fiction.
 
Yes, this is getting into the world of JFK conspiracy whackos.

Now it's time to zoom in real close and I bet you can find that the jogger had an accomplice on the side of the road. Just look at that shadow, clearly an accomplice flashing a gang sign.

Don't fall for it - it's all fiction.

That's the problem with the internet sleuths. The signal to noise ratio is pretty low. There will be 20 videos "proving" the pet theories of the internet sleuths, and it is conceivable that there will also be one that's an honest investigation into what happened, by someone with enough skill to actually shed some light on one aspect of the event.
 
Here is why I think these guys are going to be fine.



Reasonable in the law is unreasonable. For example, reasonable suspicion is sufficient for a Terry stop and does find a crime over 2/3rds of the time. Imagine being able to tell someone your suspicion is reasonable because it is only wrong 70% of the time.

https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

I think immediate knowledge is going to prove far more expansive than the very reasonable interpretations here.

The Georgia citizens arrest laws require that the crime for which the arrest is being made is witness by the citizen. This was not the case. They said he "fit the description" which is, at best, second hand information and does not meet the law. They are not police and not afforded consideration that they are required to investigate and enforce the law.

If they punched his ticket while he was in the act, I'd be a touch sympathetic. But that is far from the case. He was out for a jog, in proper jogging attire, in what would have been the worst attire to go burglarizing stuff. And his get-a-way plan would have needed some work. I'm going to swipe this hammer and the take a jog home where this nail has been sticking out for months. Even then, I don't think lethal force would have been justified.
 
Yes, this is getting into the world of JFK conspiracy whackos.

Now it's time to zoom in real close and I bet you can find that the jogger had an accomplice on the side of the road. Just look at that shadow, clearly an accomplice flashing a gang sign.

Don't fall for it - it's all fiction.

You have to zoom in real close to see that a dark spot on the road is clearly a hammer stolen during a brazen burglary or something like that.

Also, while zoomed in, pay no mind that McMichael is clearly seen aiming a shotgun at the unarmed Arbery while he's still in the road, yards away from the truck itself, well before Arbery "initiated" physical violence at the front of the truck.

The "hammer" looks like a roadkilled squirrel to me. you can still see a bit of tail fluff sticking up from the flattened critter.
 
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No, because even so, the reasonable and probable relate to escape from a felony, which is not, as I recall, what the shooters themselves said was occurring. The citzens' arrest law does not include minor crimes like trespass, and does not allow the citizens to chase down people who are suspected of felonies in the past.

They are not required to stick to that claim. They will change it to a law that fits the evidence, and claim that it in the intensity of the situation they did not articulate well on the call what they were arresting for.
 
Don't fall for it - it's all fiction.

But the brick wall we hit, we hit hard in the Amber Guyger thread and it pops up a lot in other cases, is that if the two gun happy twits believed the fiction, that somehow makes it okay.

We're going to go through the same routine again. They "honestly" thought he was the burglar so this and that and this and that and oh look another dead black guy.
 
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Say it was two cops in uniform in a patrol car and they witnessed him actually burglarizing a residence and running away.

It's still murder.

Maybe 10 to 20 years instead of 30 to life.
 
The Georgia citizens arrest laws require that the crime for which the arrest is being made is witness by the citizen. This was not the case. They said he "fit the description" which is, at best, second hand information and does not meet the law. They are not police and not afforded consideration that they are required to investigate and enforce the law.

If they punched his ticket while he was in the act, I'd be a touch sympathetic. But that is far from the case. He was out for a jog, in proper jogging attire, in what would have been the worst attire to go burglarizing stuff. And his get-a-way plan would have needed some work. I'm going to swipe this hammer and the take a jog home where this nail has been sticking out for months. Even then, I don't think lethal force would have been justified.

Who wouldn’t be a little sympathetic about someone being summarily executed for stealing tools? However private prison companies are not going to like the loss of revenue if theft becomes a capital offence.
 
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But the brick wall we hit, we hit hard in the Amber Guyger thread and it pops up a lot in other cases, is that if the two gun happy twits believed the fiction, that somehow makes it okay.

We're going to go through the same routine again. They "honestly" thought he was the burglar so this and that and this and that and oh look another dead black guy.

You cite Guyger, but I think gun twits have a lot better record this decade than the justice will prevail crowd.
 
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