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Joan of Arc

Soapy Sam said:
I suspect she was a bit simple and was used as a pawn by smarter people on both sides of the war. Then the propaganda mill got started and the stories grew like Topsy.

Who was Topsy, anyway?
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Slave girl in H B Stowe's "Uncle Tom's Cabin". She had no knowledge of her parents and said she thought she "just growed" leading to the phrase " just growed like Topsy" or in later or politer circles "grew like Topsy".
 
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I loved parts of UTC, can't believe I missed that Topsy reference. I'll have to remember that and use it sometime.

Thanks,

Susan
 
I love the Brer Rabbit stories - it's especially fun when you know the context and how they trace back to the African Spider stories, and related..

And, happy I could help Susan!!
 
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sgf8 said:
I too would like to read a well done book on her. I have a book written by Mark Twain, but it looked too novelized so I never started it.
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sgf8 said:
The Mark Twain book looked good at first, but then I went to "Library Thing" (this is where my library is, you can click on the link to my books at the bottom of this post) and looked at the reviews others were giving the book. It looked too novelized and people were gushing over it (which is a bad sign to me).
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Susan -- don't discount the Mark Twain version just because others liked it or it's novelized. From what I read somewhere along the line (during my study of Twain when I was in college IIRC), he used as much research as was available to him at the time. It was as approachable a version of the story as I've ever read, and as likely. Yes, it's "novelized," but it's put through Twain's filters of human nature, which are as accurate as just about any I've ever looked through...

Solus said:
She would have been seen as a pawn I'd imagine.
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Each side believed she was a pawn of the other side, and perhaps they used her that way, but I believe she believed in herself, and that belief led her an incredible amount of credibility.
 
I have read rather a lot about her, and in the 1970's a French author actually questioned if she was burned at all, or if a substitution occurred. As t the merit of his arguments i have no idea, as they are fairly technical and I have never seen any other author taken them up, but as I recall the claims involved payments and mentions of her after her death. As at least one "false Maid" existed, the waters are muddy to say the least! Anyone know anything about this claim? :)
 
Vic / CJ
I admit I know nothing of Joan beyond the general story, which must have accrued layers of legend around any factual core by now, especially given her place as a propaganda icon to both sides in the conflict.
If I'm dead wrong to think her simple, so be it, I've been wrong before, but someone who reports visions of saints and involves herself in a conflict which was bound to chew her up and spit her out sounds at least fearfully naive and mentally unstable.
Either she really had hallucinations or she pretended to- neither of which makes her sound like a paragon of rationality.

Suppose I took an extreme view and speculated that she never existed at all, but that the story was just a story. (I'm not , but let's start from there).
What physical evidence exists to prove this wrong?
What contemporary records?
How reliable are these?

Compared to (say) Robin Hood?
 
Vic Vega said:
OK. Please let us know which you read and post a review.

TX50 - I've seen that drawing. It was made during her lifetime, but not by someone who ever met her if my memory serves.
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I don't know anything about its accuracy as a portrait. It appears in the
margin of a record of the local council of Paris for May 1429. I'd hesitate to
call it a portrait, anyway. For what it's worth, here's a link to an artist's
reconstruction based on the girl in that little drawing.

The painting, by Angus McBride, appears in "French Armies of the
Hundred Years War" by Osprey Publishing.
 
cj.23 said:
I have read rather a lot about her, and in the 1970's a French author actually questioned if she was burned at all, or if a substitution occurred.
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A substitution..?

Boy, talk about your crappy jobs. I thought "whipping boy" was bad.
 
A quick Google search reveals that there are in the libraries of England and France, several transcripts of Joan's 15th century trials. These documents are generally considered genuine and reliable by scholars. It seems that there is substantial evidence that she was a real historical figure.
 
cj.23 said:
I have read rather a lot about her, and in the 1970's a French author actually questioned if she was burned at all, or if a substitution occurred. As t the merit of his arguments i have no idea, as they are fairly technical and I have never seen any other author taken them up, but as I recall the claims involved payments and mentions of her after her death. As at least one "false Maid" existed, the waters are muddy to say the least! Anyone know anything about this claim? :)
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That corroborates the story I heard, that she was taken into the 1980s- via time travelling phone booth- where she lived out her life as an aerobics instructor in California.
 
I've just been reading the precis of several of the Amazon.com J d'A biographies, including the one Vic Vega is reading.

While they don't obviously quote them, these certainly imply that there exist a significant number of documents written at the time , which historians take seriously as a pattern .

I have to admit, mediaeval history is not a particular interest of mine, so I doubt I'll read them, but I accept Vic's correction that Joan seems to have been no simpleton.
That she may, howeever, have been mentally ill seems to remain a serious probability. She was clearly a very strange person.

I find it quite amusing that while British school education usually mentions Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt, - all English successes of the earlier phase of the Hundred Years' War, there is rarely much mention of the latter part. Castillon is never mentioned, or the fact that Henry VI was as daft as George III ("British" Royalty has a proud tradition of loopiness, proudly upheld by our future king).

Ayway- I'm sure Joan was a plant from MI6,who wanted to shake off the whole French Connection so they could get on with the Wars of the Roses.
 
Soapy Sam said:
I've just been reading the precis of several of the Amazon.com J d'A biographies, including the one Vic Vega is reading.

While they don't obviously quote them, these certainly imply that there exist a significant number of documents written at the time , which historians take seriously as a pattern .

I have to admit, mediaeval history is not a particular interest of mine, so I doubt I'll read them, but I accept Vic's correction that Joan seems to have been no simpleton.
That she may, howeever, have been mentally ill seems to remain a serious probability. She was clearly a very strange person.

I find it quite amusing that while British school education usually mentions Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt, - all English successes of the earlier phase of the Hundred Years' War, there is rarely much mention of the latter part. Castillon is never mentioned, or the fact that Henry VI was as daft as George III ("British" Royalty has a proud tradition of loopiness, proudly upheld by our future king).

Ayway- I'm sure Joan was a plant from MI6,who wanted to shake off the whole French Connection so they could get on with the Wars of the Roses.
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Soapy -

I've been on vacation for a couple of weeks so I'm just getting back to this thread. I'm glad you took the time to read the material. Joan's case is very interesting for a lot of reasons. I'm glad to see that you agree with me that she was no simpleton.

As for what caused her to have these visions (mental illness, religious furvor, etc.), who knows? That will never be determined, however, she obviously believed what she was saying.

I'm an American, so I have no perspective on how English history is taught in English schools. Interesting comments, and yes, Henry VI was mad as a hatter.
 
Vic Vega said:
In reality, women had almost no power at all, which is one of the things that make Joan of Arc's story so interesting. Even women of noble birth had very little say in their own lives. They had no input in who they could marry unless they were very lucky and had extremely progressive fathers. This was not usually the case and women were married off, often to much older men they had never met, to forge political alliances. Married women were dominated by their husbands. Most had almost no say in how their lands were governed, even if they brought a substantial amount of wealth and property to a marriage. Women could be beaten by their husbands for any infraction, they could be forced into convents by their families, etc.
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This is something of a myth.

While some of your points are indeed true, it was not treatment specific to women, but applied equally to both sexes. Sons had as much say as daughters in who they married, and younger brothers were routinely forced into priesthood by their families also.

Joan of Arc was far from the first woman to go into battle in the Middle Ages. In fact noble women were expected to be able to perform all of the duties their husband performed, and there are ample cases of noble women levvying forces for the king in place of husbands who were absent or dead.

I don't know why the OP finds it so hard to believe that people of medieval France would have believed Joan of Arc was inspired by God. Religion was at the heart of every aspect of daily life. Medieval people were far, far closer to God than modern Christians are. "He" permeated every moment of their existence.

(Not that I believe in God, but they did)
 
gumboot said:
This is something of a myth.

While some of your points are indeed true, it was not treatment specific to women, but applied equally to both sexes. Sons had as much say as daughters in who they married, and younger brothers were routinely forced into priesthood by their families also.
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Agreed. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was responsing to a comment about women specifically.
 
Perhaps the mistake is the equate mental illness with being "simple"?

If she had hallucinations, it seems at least possible she was schizophrenic, and schizophrenics are often highly intelligent.
 
Good Joan of Arc Books

I set up a page containing reviews of different books and movies about Joan of Arc's life that might help you find what you are looking for. Just go to the Book, Movie, Music page at MaidOfHeaven.com and look through them. The biography by Mark Twain that someone already mentioned is very good and easy to read and the whole book is available online at MaidOfHeaven.com.
 
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