"Jive" for "Jibe"

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Being "older" isn't relevant since it's still commonly used; the rationalization above is an invalid one.

Surely being older is important to your claim that jibe is correct. If Jive had been used for several hundred years, and jibe had only appeared recently would you still be convinced jibe was correct?
My rationalisation may well be wrong, I did just make it up in my head, however you can't know that unless you have access to a survey showing that few people rationalise jive in that way, if you do have a survey like that, please link to it, as it may shed some light on the origin of jive in this phrase.

The one which is commonly understood to be grammatically correct and which makes sense from a simple logic perspective.

They are both grammatically correct*, we are arguing about meaning.


*There is nothing wrong with the sentences 'Good citizens don't jive with the police' or 'Lovers of early 20th Century popular music jive with each other'

 

[bigred]

Surely being older is important to your claim that jibe is correct.

? No, not in the least.

If Jive had been used for several hundred years, and jibe had only appeared recently would you still be convinced jibe was correct?

The only way realistically that is true is if those words had different meanings.

I don't get why but you seem to keep ignoring the actual (relevant) meanings of the actual words. A quick glance at those makes this very clear.

My rationalisation may well be wrong, I did just make it up in my head,

I could tell.

however you can't know that unless you have access to a survey showing that few people rationalise jive in that way,

Sorry, if we're going to play that game, it's your claim, your burden of proof.

They are both grammatically correct*, we are arguing about meaning.

You knew what I meant wise guy.

 

[davefoc]

...

I don't get why but you seem to keep ignoring the actual (relevant) meanings of the actual words. A quick glance at those makes this very clear.
...

Are you referring the meaning of jibe as in the expression jibe with?

Although the dictionary definitions don't specify this it looks to me like what is being defined as an expression and not really the word jibe. And as such it is reasonable to wonder about what jibe means in that expression. Usually an expression is made up of words which are used as they are commonly defined. In this case jibe seems to have a relationship to the standard meaning of the word jibe which is not clear.

As I noted above, I suspect that the expression actually did evolve from the standard meaning of the nautical term jibe. One point in favor of this notion would be if the British standard spelling of the expression jibe with is gybe with. Perhaps a citizen of our former colonial overlord could tell us whether this true or not?

I await a response with abated breath.

 

[caniswalensis]

I await a response with abated breath.

OMG! HE'S STOPPED BREATHING!

Does anyone know CPR!?

 

[davefoc]

OMG! HE'S STOPPED BREATHING!

Does anyone know CPR!?

Alas, to the degree that I can judge what is real, I continue to breathe. I used the term to mean:
From dictionary.com
1. to reduce in amount, degree, intensity, etc.; lessen; diminish: to abate a tax; to abate one's enthusiasm.

Also as in the expression "bated breath" where the original was modified over time. Sort of like jibe might change to jive or if LondonJohn was correct chime changing to jibe. Did I mention that I think a more likely theory than LJ's is that the expression started with the sailing term jibe/gybe and the connection was lost as the knowledge of sailing terms by the general public declined?

 

[Halfcentaur]

I always thought jibe was sort of what the OP is talking about, but to jive is akin to a man and woman dancing funky like in a sort of synchronicity, and thus sort of the same thing. You dig?

 

[LondonJohn]

Alas, to the degree that I can judge what is real, I continue to breathe. I used the term to mean:
From dictionary.com
1. to reduce in amount, degree, intensity, etc.; lessen; diminish: to abate a tax; to abate one's enthusiasm.

Also as in the expression "bated breath" where the original was modified over time. Sort of like jibe might change to jive or if LondonJohn was correct chime changing to jibe. Did I mention that I think a more likely theory than LJ's is that the expression started with the sailing term jibe/gybe and the connection was lost as the knowledge of sailing terms by the general public declined?

That wasn't me making the connections you've attributed to me here!!

But on the OP, my view is that "jibe" (which, by the way, means a different thing to the sailing term "gybe") is a relatively arcane and abstruse word in most people's experience these days. And that's why I think that many default to the more recognisable word "jive", when the correct word would be "jibe". I guess it doesn't really matter if a large constituency of people are making the same mistake, since it implies that the meaning of the new idiom ("that jives with me") is now commonly understood. And at the end of the day, that's all that's really important in spoken or written language.

 

[LondonJohn]

BTW, I read Bill Bryson's book "Mother Tongue" some years ago - it's an interesting and readable primer to linguistics and language puzzles. I recommend it highly! I recall something that I thought was quite profound, and it related to "tells" as to whether someone was a native English speaker. Apparently, one of the best tells is how a person pronounces "have" in two different contexts: 1) where it means ownership or the past tense (e.g. "I have ten different shirts in my wardrobe", or "I have just watched that programme on TV"); and 2) where it means an obligation (e.g. "I have to wash the car today"). In the former usage, the word is pronounced entirely phonetically by native English speakers (i.e. to rhyme with "Chav"), whereas in the latter usage, native English speakers will always pronounce it as "haff". Therefore, if you hear someone who has an otherwise impeccable English (or English-speaking) accent, but they don't pronounce the latter usage of "have" as "haff", it's a fair bet that they were born and raised outside an English-speaking area. I'd say that's Quite Interesting, but others might disagree

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Are you referring the meaning of jibe as in the expression jibe with?

I'm not at all sure what he's referring to, I only know he strongly disagrees with me about it.

Although the dictionary definitions don't specify this it looks to me like what is being defined as an expression and not really the word jibe. And as such it is reasonable to wonder about what jibe means in that expression. Usually an expression is made up of words which are used as they are commonly defined. In this case jibe seems to have a relationship to the standard meaning of the word jibe which is not clear.

It looks that way to me as well, also because jibe is only used to mean agree in the stock phrase. You can't say 'I jibe' if you agree with what someone said, or ' Do you jibe?' to check if they agree with you. It's a very defective verb.

As I noted above, I suspect that the expression actually did evolve from the standard meaning of the nautical term jibe. One point in favor of this notion would be if the British standard spelling of the expression jibe with is gybe with. Perhaps a citizen of our former colonial overlord could tell us whether this true or not?

I await a response with abated breath.

Alas it's probably a little bit more complicated than that. According to Wordreference.com

Concise Oxford English Dictionary © 2008 Oxford University Press:
jibe1 (also gibe)
▶noun an insulting or mocking remark. ▶verb make jibes.
– origin C16: perh. from OFr. giber ‘handle roughly’ (in mod. dial. ‘kick’); cf. jib2.

Concise Oxford English Dictionary © 2008 Oxford University Press:
jibe2
▶verb & noun US variant of gybe.

Concise Oxford English Dictionary © 2008 Oxford University Press:
jibe3
▶verb N. Amer. informal be in accordance; agree.
– origin C19: of unknown origin.

Concise Oxford English Dictionary © 2008 Oxford University Press:
gybe /dʒʌɪb/ (US jibe) Sailing
▶verb change course by swinging the sail across a following wind. ■ (of a sail or boom) swing across the wind.
▶noun an act of gybing.
– origin C17: from obs. Du. gijben.

Jibe meaning agree is a 19th Century American meaning, so if the British use the phrase, it's probably imported from the US with its existing spelling.

 

[fleabeetle]

On the could/couldn’t care less issue, I believe I saw the move to ‘could’ actually begin to take root, in as much as it is possible for a single human to observe such a thing. I grew up in the 60’s & 70’s in mid-west America, and we always said ‘couldn’t’ This seemed universal to me until the late eighties, when I begin to observe people saying ‘could’. I first saw it on TV a couple times, and then amongst people I was acquainted with. I even said it myself sometimes. The thing is, I recall it being delivered with a very sarcastic tone of voice. That is the only way that it really works; if it is said ironically.

Eventually the ironic tone seemed to get lost. I remember the late, great Harlan Ellison delivering a scathing condemnation of the practice of saying ‘could care less’ a few years later. By that time it was common to hear 'could'.

Thanks. The sarcastic / ironic angle had never before occurred to me.

BTW, I read Bill Bryson's book "Mother Tongue" some years ago - it's an interesting and readable primer to linguistics and language puzzles. I recommend it highly! I recall something that I thought was quite profound, and it related to "tells" as to whether someone was a native English speaker. Apparently, one of the best tells is how a person pronounces "have" in two different contexts: 1) where it means ownership or the past tense (e.g. "I have ten different shirts in my wardrobe", or "I have just watched that programme on TV"); and 2) where it means an obligation (e.g. "I have to wash the car today"). In the former usage, the word is pronounced entirely phonetically by native English speakers (i.e. to rhyme with "Chav"), whereas in the latter usage, native English speakers will always pronounce it as "haff". Therefore, if you hear someone who has an otherwise impeccable English (or English-speaking) accent, but they don't pronounce the latter usage of "have" as "haff", it's a fair bet that they were born and raised outside an English-speaking area. I'd say that's Quite Interesting, but others might disagree

Interesting indeed, and I agree with what is propounded here. A bit of the content of Bryson's "Mother Tongue", which I had completely forgotten. Thought it a fascinating and entertaining book, though considering some of the author's assertions in it, a bit suspect.

 

[BowlOfRed]

sling cites the only example I know of where "root" is used - that is, when referring to Route 66. All other situations call for the "doubt" variation. Maybe that specialized usage comes from the song about Route 66 but then I don't know where that pronunciation comes from.

I heard one of the morning radio traffic reporters say "root" this morning. I wouldn't have noticed except for this thread.

 

[davefoc]

That wasn't me making the connections you've attributed to me here!!

Ah yes, a senior moment, my apologies. It appears that Mr. brodski was the provider of that particular theory.

But on the OP, my view is that "jibe" (which, by the way, means a different thing to the sailing term "gybe") is a relatively arcane and abstruse word in most people's experience these days. And that's why I think that many default to the more recognisable word "jive", when the correct word would be "jibe". I guess it doesn't really matter if a large constituency of people are making the same mistake, since it implies that the meaning of the new idiom ("that jives with me") is now commonly understood. And at the end of the day, that's all that's really important in spoken or written language.

I take this to mean that in British English "jibes with" is the spelling of the word in the expression and the sailing manoeuvre is a "gybe". This squares with the Oxford English dictionary. And it provides countervailing evidence to my theory. If the expression started with the sailing term I would expect it to have retained the same spelling. So maybe Mr. Brodski was on to something with his chime idea.

I notice that according to the Oxford English dictionary jibe is also an alternative spelling for gibe.

 

[zooterkin]

Jibe meaning agree is a 19th Century American meaning, so if the British use the phrase, it's probably imported from the US with its existing spelling.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone British using the phrase with either 'jive' or 'jibe'. I have heard 'chime' used, as suggested earlier in the thread.

 

[davefoc]

...
Jibe meaning agree is a 19th Century American meaning, so if the British use the phrase, it's probably imported from the US with its existing spelling.

I missed this post before. If the expression is of American origin I think my theory just got a boost since even the Brits use the jibe spelling.

Now I'm wondering why the Americans moved from gybe to jibe.

It's pretty easy to see why the spelling change in some words like maneuver, manoeuvre is just silly. And what can one say about gaol? Obviously the people that invented Monty Python have a sense of humour.

 

[davefoc]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone British using the phrase with either 'jive' or 'jibe'. I have heard 'chime' used, as suggested earlier in the thread.

I'm going to ignore this because it doesn't fit my theory.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I missed this post before. If the expression is of American origin I think my theory just got a boost since even the Brits use the jibe spelling.

Now I'm wondering why the Americans moved from gybe to jibe.

It's pretty easy to see why the spelling change in some words like maneuver, manoeuvre is just silly. And what can one say about gaol? Obviously the people that invented Monty Python have a sense of humour.

Hang on, gaol->jail; Gybe -> jibe. I think your post contains its own answer, it's yet another example of Americans wilfully mucking up the spelling of perfectly cromulent words.

Seriously, whatever the reason for the change, it's quite possibly the same in both cases.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oooh I just thought of another one to add to the canon of incorrect words used inappropriately: using disinterested when one means uninterested.

(As any fule kno, "disinterested" means "unbiased" or "neutral", whereas only "uninterested" means "not interested", where "interest" is used in its more usual colloquial meaning of "having one's attention captured/stimulated").

I don't think that this word-swap has yet reached the tipping point of being generally accepted, but I do see/hear it increasingly frequently - even on news and factual TV programmes, but not yet in the printed media. I must admit that I'm not disinterested in monitoring the situation though

 

[Clayton Moore]

oooh i just thought of another one to add to the canon of incorrect words used inappropriately: Using disinterested when one means uninterested.

(as any fule kno, "disinterested" means "unbiased" or "neutral", whereas only "uninterested" means "not interested", where "interest" is used in its more usual colloquial meaning of "having one's attention captured/stimulated").

I don't think that this word-swap has yet reached the tipping point of being generally accepted, but i do see/hear it increasingly frequently - even on news and factual tv programmes, but not yet in the printed media. I must admit that i'm not disinterested in monitoring the situation though :d

p a r t y