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Jim Fetzer & Conspiracies

Yes.



I'm not sure what you're arguing. The people I meet agree that belief in one conspiracy theory is likely to predict belief in others. They also agree that there is a gradation of "crankiness" associated with variants of these theories. I have seen no evidence to support the claim that those gradations are trivial or are somehow equivalent to a bogus imposition of gradation on well-defined actions.

With respect to the Moon landing hoax theory, there is more widespread acceptance for a claim that some genuine landings occurred but our record of them is incomplete or partially fabricated, than there is for a claim that no missions occurred and that the entire Apollo program was a fabrication. Although I no longer debate 9/11 conspiracy theories with much vigor, I have noted that there is more widespread acceptance for claims that the attacks occurred largely as claimed, but that there was some inaction or complicity, than for claims that exotic technologies were used to stage the entire tragedy.

If I understand your argument correctly, you want to bifurcate the question into "sane" and "kooky," and assert that it is pointless outside of JREF to consider gradations or severities of kookiness. You attribute any perception of such a gradation to a focus and/or confirmation bias endemic to JREF. Instead I see that bifurcation as an imposition of a simplified model on what I've observed in the field to be a phenomenon sufficiently rich in variety to support the allegations in the original post. Namely, since there is a gradation of kookiness in conspiracy belief, why do certain people gravitate toward the extreme end?

This is sort of what I am saying.

The question as I see it concerns attributions made about Jim Fetzer. As such, the issue here is not whether no-planes are crazier than thermite CDers. The issue here is, is Fetzer crazier because he believes X than another Truther because he believes Y. In other words, is there a scale of craziness that you can place Fetzer and others on and say that such & such a score on the scale makes them candidates as disinfo agents are attention hounds or whatever.

So is Fetzer crazier than WTC Dust? She doesn't believe any of these other conspiracies as far as I can tell. Does that make her less crazy than Fetzer and less likely a disinfo agent or whatever?
 
I see what you're getting at now, and I think you have a point.

You can't pick any two variations randomly and say Variant A is necessarily kookier than Variant B, but I think that's mostly because some of them are apples and oranges. Is it kookier to say than at ex-Nazi cabal was responsible for hoaxing the Moon landings or that it was the Illuminati-controlled CIA? I can't say, because both of those fall into a similar category of kookiness. So the gradation is in some sense comparative and in another sense categorical.

That may be what you intended by referring to "clusters" of thought. If so, then I agree with your point. I only hasten to add that I think some clusters can be thought of as necessarily kookier than other clusters. But fine distinctions within those clusters are probably not suitable for judging the relative kookiness of belief.
 
I see what you're getting at now, and I think you have a point.

You can't pick any two variations randomly and say Variant A is necessarily kookier than Variant B, but I think that's mostly because some of them are apples and oranges. Is it kookier to say than at ex-Nazi cabal was responsible for hoaxing the Moon landings or that it was the Illuminati-controlled CIA? I can't say, because both of those fall into a similar category of kookiness. So the gradation is in some sense comparative and in another sense categorical.

That may be what you intended by referring to "clusters" of thought. If so, then I agree with your point. I only hasten to add that I think some clusters can be thought of as necessarily kookier than other clusters. But fine distinctions within those clusters are probably not suitable for judging the relative kookiness of belief.

Yes, I would say that's closer to what I'm hoping to say. Thank you for having patience with me. Sometimes it's not so easy for me to express my point.

Because I join in a lot of on-line discussions among Truthers, I see this idea of "craziness" and "disinfo" all the time. I see people who promote HAARP and chemtrails saying that Judy Wood is disinfo because of her belief that the WTC buildings were turned to dust. Sure, I understand this, but I talk to these guys all the time and sometimes pretend I'm one of them. My wife just puts them all in one basket as crazy conspiracy folk.

This is not to say that she doesn't understand a difference between Judy Wood and someone who thinks the CIA knew there was a plan to attack the WTC and ignored it. But much of this trouble comes from genuine confusion about 9/11, like whether the hijackers entered from Canada or were Iraqi citizens. It is this distinction that separates the crazies from the confused people. And it is this distinction that places David Ray Griffin in the same basket as Jim Fetzer, Steven Jones and all the rest. That is, unless you're willing to enter into Conspiracy World and start looking for fine differences in knowledge that we share not only with each other but with the conspiracy theorists themselves.

I think this is much closer to what I was hoping to say. Thanks for staying with me on this.
 
A couple of years ago a guy who took a class that Jim Fetzer was teaching called me. We talked about the issue of whether Fetzer really believes what he pushes. It might or might not shed some light on Fetzer.

If you want to listen to it, here is the link:

http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/dkw_053010.mp3
 
A couple of years ago a guy who took a class that Jim Fetzer was teaching called me. We talked about the issue of whether Fetzer really believes what he pushes. It might or might not shed some light on Fetzer.

If you want to listen to it, here is the link:

http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/dkw_053010.mp3

I have listened to the about the first 15 minutes. Fetzer has almost nothing to do with it. It was all I can handle.

This is a very confusing interview. It appears the guys on the audiofile are Truthers of some sort. The site www.pumpitout.com on which this is posted appears to be Truther site.

Are you a 9/11 Truther posting things that are Truther links but pretending to be something else just so people will listen?

Ohhhh....I get it now. You have to listen until about 30 minutes 'til they get to Fetzer. But these guys are conspiracy theorists of some sort.
 
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I thought so...
I'm hoping one day truther's will see through all the BS they believe.

Truther's, as do many others not labeled as such, believe there is something very wrong with what we were told about 9/11. Even though truther's in general are very wrong about what they believe to be true, they are right in that there is something wrong.

There is a cover-up concerning the Saudi involvement. The CIA/NSA had the Al-Qaeda Yemen communications hub tapped for years and were tracking the terrorist's. Not to mention Shaffer and Able Danger. The CIA deliberately withheld information from the FBI personnel and thwarted investigations that could have prevented what happened. Especially at the Pentagon since an FBI informant had two of 77's terrorist's living with him.

JREF concentrates on all the stupid conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. Yet when it comes to the serious issues, most people here will not accept the undeniable facts that there is more to 9/11 than we were told.

So, in a way, JREFer's are just as manipulated as truther's. Just on the opposite side of the fence.

ps: Since you enjoyed Lawrence Wright`s book, you might also be impressed with Summers/Swan's and Kevin Fenton's books too.
 
Easy now! No alterior motive as you ponder.

I posted the audio, because, like I said, I thought it might help in shed some light on Fetzer. Thats it, thats all.

I've dealt with Fetzer and the whole circus side show over the years and he is one that I still can't figure out. Like the OP asked...

Does Fetzer really believe the garbage he spews?

I'm still not sure if he does or not, but being a professor of logic and critical thinking as Fetzer was, it is very hard to think that he believes what he says.
 
I also found this interesting:

By November 1996, Prof. Fetzer was leading the charge of those advocating that the Zapruder film had been altered: He unveiled a seven-part video overview of the assassination; he was promoting Dr. Mantik, a medical researcher, as "the world authority on the Zapruder film; and he had gathered a few others who believed in alteration (Jack White, Roy Schaeffer, David Lifton, etc.) to join them on a totally one-sided double panel arguing their case. Just to make certain that things would go his way, he took complete control, juggled panel members around, and gave long-winded introductions essentially telling the audience what they were expected to believe at the end of the presentations (I wonder if this is how he lectures at the University of Minnesota at Duluth?)

Again, there seemed a lot of nonsense, but a few points worth pursuing. Livingstone decided to have nothing to do with the extreme alterationists, though he remained on good terms with Dr. Mantik, with whom he had worked on medical evidence issues.

The Zapruder panels gained the kind of attention Prof. Fetzer had been looking for. There were heated debates in private e-mail lists, then on Internet newsgroups. In 1997, the book Prof. Fetzer edited, Assassination Science, was released, with a long chapter by Dr. Mantik on Zapruder film alteration, as well as a few others on the topic.

Around the same time, Noel Twyman came out, somewhat less fervently, for alteration in his book, Bloody Treason. This was the peak, and the alterationists rode the wave for a while.

There had always been those who were skeptical of the bulk of the alterationist claims. As the debate continued, more of the "anomalies" were explained, and the points which had seemed worth pursuing began to fall by the wayside, but the alterationists had a tendency to do three things:

1) A phenomenon I call "Anomaly of the Week," which meant that no matter how many alterationist claims were proven wrong, new ones cropped up like weeds, some of them increasingly far-fetched, and quickly discarded in the face of evidence;

2) A tendency to wait until the controversy over something had died down, and then resurrect it as though it were "new evidence;" and

3) An increasing tendency to launch personal attacks on unbelievers, accusing them of being "Lone Nutters," or "disinformation agents," or "anti-conspiracy" (as though theirs was the only valid conspiracy theory), or "too dumb" to understand the "startling evidence" which had "already proven" alteration true.

The Assassination Records Review Board looked into the alteration allegations, concluded the film was authentic, and made sure to preserve all available Archive copies. The Zapruder family worked with MPI video to release a high-resolution digital copy for study, in video and DVD formats. Robert Groden had already released a video which included a variety of Zapruder films (a 35mm copy of the damaged original, an intact Secret Service copy, an early bootleg, etc.). Then the ARRB released the 600 page technical reports and documentation by retired Kodak 8mm expert Roland Zavada, which an alterationist described as "devastating" to proponents of alteration.

The alteration proponents, as even some of them conceded, suffered a blow at the 1998 JFK Lancer conference's Zapruder film panel, the first time they had to publicly face opponents of their views in a forum. Prof. Fetzer made a scene, and effectively eliminated the question and answer period. Since the conference, a fissure has developed between the "realist" alterationists and the "ideological" alterationists, with some bitterness resulting. Jack White has released a videotape which the "ideological" wing believes to be overwhelming evidence that the film was altered, and which the "realist" wing feels is unconvincing, an embarrassment, and a setback to those who believe there is genuine evidence of alteration, but are having doubts.
http://www.jfk-info.com/martin2.htm
 
Easy now! No alterior motive as you ponder.

I posted the audio, because, like I said, I thought it might help in shed some light on Fetzer. Thats it, thats all.

I've dealt with Fetzer and the whole circus side show over the years and he is one that I still can't figure out. Like the OP asked...

Does Fetzer really believe the garbage he spews?

I'm still not sure if he does or not, but being a professor of logic and critical thinking as Fetzer was, it is very hard to think that he believes what he says.

Fair enough. And while it is interesting to hear 2 conspiracy theorists talking about Jim Fetzer, all it does is confirm that some conspiracy theorists do in fact see him as crazier than they are, even though almost everyone else would see them as crazy.

Why would anyone have trouble believing Fetzer actually believes what he says? You must realize, but perhaps don't, that your conspiracy position sounds almost as crazy to most people as his does. You think it's reasonable, and that guys like Fetzer are the problem, because you also think that if you don't have laser beams or thermite, it must be reasonable. I just see a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists arguing over baskets of crazy ideas about which ones are crazier.

To return to the point I was discussing with JayUtah, I see much of this discussion about the 'the craziest conspiracy theory' as an internal struggle inside the conspiracy movement. For people involved with this discourse, it's important to have a measure of who is and isn't crazier. My feeling is that since we are aware that some people involved in conspiracy theory suffer from severe mental problems, we need a shorthand way of sorting through these baskets of ideas to find them. This 'disinfo' stuff arises when conspiracy theorists themselves find people who deviate from their shorthand rules of mental illness. It helps them feel warm and cozy again that they're right and it's those other competing conspiracy ideas that are really insane.
 
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You don't know my position and if you think your opinion represents almost everyone, you're delusional.
 
You don't know my position and if you think your opinion represents almost everyone, you're delusional.

This is one of those strange answers indicating that you haven't been reading the thread. Ohhh...I get it...you saw a word, parachuted in, and left your link. It's not meant to be about contributing to the discussion.
 
I was contributing to this:

So: does Jim Fetzer actually believe in the theories he supports or are there other reasons for his supporting the most wacky of "out there" beliefs?

It's this I want to discuss and hear opinions on: does he actually believe what he says?
 
A couple of years ago a guy who took a class that Jim Fetzer was teaching called me. We talked about the issue of whether Fetzer really believes what he pushes. It might or might not shed some light on Fetzer.

If you want to listen to it, here is the link:

http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/dkw_053010.mp3
Why not summarize it...

/infor - like the truth, but .../
Fetzer is a CT nut. Fetzer has an algorithm he uses as what is true.

Fetzer algorithm, or law, "or what".
/fetzer/ What every Fetzer says is true, is true; if you argue against what Fetzer says is true, using facts and evidence you are a clown. /fetzer/

Fetzer is nuts on JFK, Fetzer is nuts on 911. Cool part, Fetzer answers his email, and you can earn the title of "clown" by using facts and evidence.

you - editorial you, not you...

/end info/

Fetzer believes his BS, it is what he is, an artist. He is right, and others are clowns, when people debunk him with facts and evidence. He can't figure out Oswald shot Kennedy, so he promotes delusional claptrap. Same on 911 and ...
email him and learn the Fetzer Algorithm first hand -
 
Why not summarize it...

/infor - like the truth, but .../
Fetzer is a CT nut. Fetzer has an algorithm he uses as what is true.

Fetzer algorithm, or law, "or what".
/fetzer/ What every Fetzer says is true, is true; if you argue against what Fetzer says is true, using facts and evidence you are a clown. /fetzer/

Fetzer is nuts on JFK, Fetzer is nuts on 911. Cool part, Fetzer answers his email, and you can earn the title of "clown" by using facts and evidence.

you - editorial you, not you...

/end info/

Fetzer believes his BS, it is what he is, an artist. He is right, and others are clowns, when people debunk him with facts and evidence. He can't figure out Oswald shot Kennedy, so he promotes delusional claptrap. Same on 911 and ...
email him and learn the Fetzer Algorithm first hand -

It's really long and rambling. I'm not sure who the interviewer is, but it sounds like it could have come from Free Think Radio. Both people appear to be conspiracy theorists of a sort, although they take pains to make sure you will know they are not the really crazy type. For example, they know that a plane really hit the Pentagon, although they're not sure what kind of plane it was. And something was really strange at Shanksville, but you just don't know what it is. You know, the type - the 'Just-Asking-Questions' 9/11 intellectual types.

Fetzer is described as being honest but having been duped by unscrupulous people with bad evidence. But you just wait...when Dr. Jim figures this out, he's going to get them good.

25:50
we hear about how investigators into the Kennedy assassination have been killed.

26:20
In Fetzer's world that's the reason people flip. They have actively sold out.

26:50
So as far as you can tell, the guy's an honest researcher? He believes what he believes?
Ya, he definitely believes what he believes. I'm sure it took him a while to get to the place where he he felt there weren't planes. because he's a guy who believes logic and empirical research...you know, if you can't touch it, it didn't happen, so...he had to go to great lengths to reach that conclusion.

about 28:00
He based his conclusions off of bad information, I guess.
Ya, he's been duped in the opposite direction. And because Jim has surrounded himself with really credible people, through JFK and stuff, he thinks that everybody is credible, too...He doesn't think there are people who would spout some no plane theory to him that would appear credible...He's really slow to see ya, there are people that have tricked me. But once he finds out, he's a bulldog, you know...when he finds out that some group of people have duped him, he will blow them up and he will be the leading person...you know, because he's such a dogged researcher...he'll be leading the way in exposing those people.

So he would admit he was wrong if he knew he was wrong?
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Don't waste your life listening to it. This is strictly for conspiracy nuts.
 
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I read the thread and find your posts strange.

If the link bothers you so much, I request that a mod remove it since I can't edit the post anymore.
 
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This conversation seems unnecessarily confrontational. Disappointingly, Scott Sommers seems to be the primary instigator. Time to take a step back, I think.
 

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