Jim Callahan Vs. Chad Sanborn Challenge

[Legend]

Thankyou.

Alex.

 

[desertgal]

I apologize, desertgal. I should have made myself more clear and thanks for bringing that up. I should have given an example and a link. I was actually referring to what can be seen in the psychological manipulation thread where people will suggest what kind of things Callahan is doing or attempting to do. What you never see is him volunteer information first but rather respond to people say yes, he was doing this or that and would add a little detail.

I'm sorry I made it seem that suggestions here why he hasn't answered Sanborn in any fashion we could see might help Jim. By all means, there's plenty of reasons to speculate what the reasons were and anybody who likes is obviously welcome to do so.

It's fine...no need to apologize...I just wanted to be clear on this, so that I won't inadvertently help Callahan's act along.

Out of curiosity. Callahan claims that he and Sanborn came to an "understanding". Has anyone called his bluff and contacted Sanborn about the issue? Seems fair ro me, since his acceptance of Callahan's challenge is being discussed here, to alert him to Callahan's statement and allow him to chime in, if he wishes.

 

[kitakaze]

It's fine...no need to apologize...I just wanted to be clear on this, so that I won't inadvertently help Callahan's act along.

Out of curiosity. Callahan claims that he and Sanborn came to an "understanding". Has anyone called his bluff and contacted Sanborn about the issue? Seems fair ro me, since his acceptance of Callahan's challenge is being discussed here, to alert him to Callahan's statement and allow him to chime in, if he wishes.

Yes, d-gal. Myself and at least one other poster have contacted and are waiting for response from Chad Sanborn. Hopefully the contact address still works. The only thing thing Callahan has said in the way of comment on this very telling display of Jim's games is that he and Sanborn came to an understanding. He also told us that he was making progress with Skeptic's Bible (Chris) regarding his challenge (he intentionally created a situation to encourage people to think he meant the MDC but he actually was talking about his self-designed test). Chris then came and told us that this was not at all the case. I'm confident that it will be the same case with Sanborn. Hey, it's a thought provoking piece of performance art because we're contacting someone to confirm more lies from him, right?

Jim likes to mess with people and he has the free time to do so. He can and has accomplished this with a few posters in the psychological manipulation thread and the MDC thread. It's nothing impressive and is the kind of trolling that he enjoys and has the time to do. I have implored people in those threads not to feed the beast, so to speak. What is positive about this thread is that we can accomplish by simple means a laying bare of all that Callahan is doing without giving him a stage to troll on.

With that goal in mind, it's important that we don't jump at silly string like this:

The others are doing what they need to support the false reality they have created.
But it is true as pointed out on the other thread I am pushing them to do so.

Interaction builds commitment.
They interact with the content I create and in doing so create value.

Jim wants you to think he's in control now. If he can get you to buy into that idea and invest time trying to refute it then he becomes partially succesful in a kind of evasion. But Jim didn't create this reality. Jim didn't expect another magician to come and put his money where Jim's mouth is on all his public hype about cash gaurantees. The fact is that he is being outted as a huckster and he's not liking it. Does it matter that people already think he's a scam artist? Yes and no. It's important to have a concise and clear example that allows people to say "I'm not interested in anything Callahan says or does. He's a simple huckster and a pseudo-intellectual bore." He can try weasel maneuvers with his Phenomenom performance and Angel's challenge but no amount of footwork is going to evade him fleeing from Chad Sanborn's $25K offer to play Jim's way.

 

[kitakaze]

Every comment/response becomes part of his "performance".

I've given this some thought. I don't think this is actually always the case. Jim will encourage you to think so and anything that allows him the illusion of control is going to be something that he will actively encourage and in doing so further his agenda. What's happening now is not the kind of performance Jim wants or has any kind of control over. It's an excercise that encourages people once the evidence is firmly established to make an informed choice to actively ignore Callahan's purile games.

Instead of getting caught up in whether Jim might really apply to the MDC, or whether he's successfully manipulating everyone the way he wants you to think, if he really is a bad speller, etc... any of the mind-numbingly stupid things that allows him to chuckle at home over his gin... we can have something simple and plain that serves as a clear proof of what Callahan is and what the value of engaging him on these points is. We can pass it amongst ourselves and send it to anyone who is curious. I think that's worth it.

 

[chillzero]

Instead of getting caught up in whether Jim might really apply to the MDC, or whether he's successfully manipulating everyone the way he want's you to think, if he really is a bad speller, etc... any of the mind-numbingly stupid things that allows him to chuckle at home over his gin... we can have something simple and plain that serves as a clear proof of what Callahan is and what the value of engaging him on these points is. We can pass it amongst ourselves and send it to anyone who is curious. I think that's worth it.

...but ... I thought the point of this thread was to discuss Jim's challenge, that was issued, and that was accepted by Chad Sanborn?

No?

 

[Azrael 5]

I suppose it is chillzero,or maybe it's just a general Jim Callahan thread.
Anyway on topic,I emailed Chad Sanborn re:Jim's comments but have had no reply as yet.

All you have to realise is Jim is annoying and an attention seeker;anyone that takes 35 pages of magic forum to do some bizarre prediction(if thats what it was I lost the will to live trying to figure it out)is blatently so.

 

[chillzero]

I suppose it is chillzero,or maybe it's just a general Jim Callahan thread.

Nope, I checked the title and OP - pretty specific.

Anyway on topic,I emailed Chad Sanborn re:Jim's comments but have had no reply as yet.

Cool - please keep us updated.
Until that response comes, or until Jim Callahan makes some sort of response to the challenge acceptance, I'm sure there are other threads around the place.

All you have to realise is Jim is annoying and an attention seeker;anyone that takes 35 pages of magic forum to do some bizarre prediction(if thats what it was I lost the will to live trying to figure it out)is blatently so.

Not half as annoying as the fact that all threads lead to Rome. Let's try to have one on topic that desn't degenerate into off topic bickering.

 

[Myriad]

Just for everyone's information, I've split the posts not related to the Chad Sanborn challenge out of the thread. A few went to AAH, but most are in a new thread about Jim Callahan's various public and recorded performances, here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132892.

Also, to make Chillzero's excellent suggestion official:

Let's try to have a thread on topic that desn't degenerate into off topic bickering.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Myriad

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[kitakaze]

...but ... I thought the point of this thread was to discuss Jim's challenge, that was issued, and that was accepted by Chad Sanborn?

No?

Yes, correct. Yairhol started the thread to seek clarification on the challenge and why Callahan had not responded to Sanborn's offer. How do we get resolution on that and what its implications are? What are the facts? First we look to Jim's own few words on the matter. "We came to an understanding." Is that helpful? Jim likes to say "hope that clears things up." Does that clear things up? Not at all. It rather looks looks as though he is avoiding the issue.

So what can we do to learn what really transpired? We can do as Callahan himself suggested and contact Sanborn for comment himself. Did Callahan expect that to actually occur? Is it a play for time? Who cares. Either way the information that Yairhol was after will become available if Chad is available to let us know.

I suspect, as was the case with Skeptic's Bible and Callahan's misleading comments about "making progress," that there is no understanding (or at least one where Sanborn became satisfied of the abilities that he offered $25K to test). Without getting to much into issues from other boards, Chad made his offer in a Magic Cafe thread about Jim Callahan's $25,000 challenge and Deja-vu. Here is the first post where Chad puts his own $25K forward:

An open message to Jack Galloway:

I am interested in putting you to the test. I would like to begin to make arrangements that the meet criteria you set forth, as well as some other small details that will protect my interests in this matter.

I am willing to Put up $25 thousand against your $25 thousand. (sorry I don't have a million or I would do that!)

I will hide an object in a secret location and videotape the entire process. If you can tell me where the object is located* and what the object is* then I will hand over a cashiers check for $25 thousand to you. BUT, if you fail to tell me, then you will hand your cashiers check of equal amount over to me.

Simple as that.

One final question I have is, who will be showing up for the test, as you seem to have several aliases. I need to be sure who to make the check out to:
Jim Class
Jack Galloway
Jim Callahan

You can email me with any questions regarding this matter.

Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you,

Chad Sanborn


*You must verify the exact location in detail. You can do this by describing what you see, which can be checked against the videotape or by giving gps coordinates which will take us to the exact spot of the hidden object.
*You must be able to describe the object, both in color, shape, size, and materials manufactured from.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=105421&forum=15&start=90

This thread is not in any way a general Jim Callahan thread as I see it. It absolutely should not be. This is obviously not directed at you but I just want to point out for anyone that may not have noticed that a general Jim Callahan claims thread was closed. I'm quite sure using this thread as such is circumventing that mod action. I personally hope another general Callahan thread does not come up as it will just be used the way the last one was. This thread is to discuss the very specific point of the Callahan/Sanborn challenge and its implications. It has a resolution in sight, that being clarification from the people involved. Callahan has made it claer that he's not interested in assisting that goal so we look to Sanborn.

Once it has become clear then naturally the thread comes to a kind of conclusion.

 

[chillzero]

Thanks kitikaze and Myriad.

I look forward to whatever Mr Sanborn will have to add to this tale

 

[kitakaze]

I suppose it is chillzero,or maybe it's just a general Jim Callahan thread.

No, no, no. Bad idea. Very bad idea. This is very specific. It has a specific goal. Please let's stay focused on that goal.

Not half as annoying as the fact that all threads lead to Rome. Let's try to have one on topic that desn't degenerate into off topic bickering.

Yes, yes, yes. Good idea. Very good idea.

Please, please, please let me get what I want this time.

It's so easy to take swipes at Callahan and start name-calling. IMO, that's what he wants. I've seen people do it in this thread. I know I've flamed Jim myself in another thread. Let's be at our JREF best and not feed the beast, so to speak. Let's focus on finding out what the resolution of the Callahan/Sanborn challenge is.

 

[chillzero]

Callahan puts great emphasis on cash guarantees to his claims and here we have the very situation of a person (who happened to be a fellow magician) taking Jim's challenge and offering an equal amount of money to test Callahan under his own rules. Jim's silence on this is golden. More than anything he has said about Angel, Randi, or the MDC, this is the subject he really hopes will go away and speaks the loudest about him. Here you have someone putting their money where Jim's mouth is and Jim's mouth going very quiet.

This is the part I find interesting. I would have thought it the height of foolishness to put money behind any bet or challenge without certainty of succeeding. To become silent when your offer is accepted can never speak well for you.

Unlike the perception by most believers of most skeptics, I'm sure I'm not alone in stating I'd prefer to see such challenges accepted and tested fully. I'd love to be witness to the proof of paranormal powers that some people are normally so vocal about, and it's a shame to see further evidence with every one of these types of challenges or tests that it's unlikely to ever happen.

I'm not sure which I'd prefer to see - a law suit to recover the money on a bet/challenge that has been run away from, or the challenge to go ahead and see the money go to Sanborn anyway.

 

[kitakaze]

This is the part I find interesting. I would have thought it the height of foolishness to put money behind any bet or challenge without certainty of succeeding. To become silent when your offer is accepted can never speak well for you.

One gets the strong impression that Callahan never truly anticipated that development (another magician putting his money where Jim's mouth is) or at least was ill-prepared for it. It is interesting to note that while Jim would go on and on about cash money guarantees on his performances and abilities, when people sought clarification of exactly what is meant and how one seeks to engage in the challenge process, the misdirection and evasion would begin. In seeking commentary on his website when he first appeared at the Magic Cafe, a number of magicians raised the confusing nature of his cash guarantees and yet nothing has changed. I think that is very telling as to why those so-called "guarantees" are there.

Unlike the perception by most believers of most skeptics, I'm sure I'm not alone in stating I'd prefer to see such challenges accepted and tested fully. I'd love to be witness to the proof of paranormal powers that some people are normally so vocal about, and it's a shame to see further evidence with every one of these types of challenges or tests that it's unlikely to ever happen.

I too would love to see someone with real paranormal powers undergo some real controlled testing. I think we've seen enough to know that Callahan is afraid of any kind of real testing but that the prospect of submitting to it can be used in various ways to his benefit. Callahan tells us that he has given us proof of his claims but ignores anyone who points out that his "proof" did not eliminate mundane trickery. I doubt he thinks that asking non-magicians for an explanation of how it was done is any kind of sincere attempt to facilitate understanding.

I'm not sure which I'd prefer to see - a law suit to recover the money on a bet/challenge that has been run away from, or the challenge to go ahead and see the money go to Sanborn anyway.

I personally would like to see a clear explanation of why Callahan clearly evaded Sanborn and also a clear precise explanation of how one successfully accepts his cash guarantees.

 

[desertgal]

Yes, d-gal. Myself and at least one other poster have contacted and are waiting for response from Chad Sanborn. Hopefully the contact address still works. The only thing thing Callahan has said in the way of comment on this very telling display of Jim's games is that he and Sanborn came to an understanding. He also told us that he was making progress with Skeptic's Bible (Chris) regarding his challenge (he intentionally created a situation to encourage people to think he meant the MDC but he actually was talking about his self-designed test). Chris then came and told us that this was not at all the case. I'm confident that it will be the same case with Sanborn. Hey, it's a thought provoking piece of performance art because we're contacting someone to confirm more lies from him, right?

Thank you, and, believe me, I intend to sit on my hands regarding this thread, and not be sidetracked further by Callahan's game playing. I apologize again for my earlier lapse.

I suppose it could be considered performance art..with a foregone conclusion. I don't believe anyone here expect that Mr. Sanborn with an affirmation of Callahan's position that they "reached an agreement". We shall see, though...

Out of mild curiosity, and I haven't perused his site to any extent, is there any evidence that Callahan even has this $25,000 set aside for anyone who accepts his challenge and succeeds? For example, I know he has often shown interest in, and thrown out barbs about, the status of the MDC account, and been directed to the publicized bank statement. Does he offer that kind of evidence of his $25,000?

Jim likes to mess with people and he has the free time to do so. He can and has accomplished this with a few posters in the psychological manipulation thread and the MDC thread. It's nothing impressive and is the kind of trolling that he enjoys and has the time to do. I have implored people in those threads not to feed the beast, so to speak. What is positive about this thread is that we can accomplish by simple means a laying bare of all that Callahan is doing without giving him a stage to troll on.

Again, I have no intention of further taking his bait.

Jim wants you to think he's in control now. If he can get you to buy into that idea and invest time trying to refute it then he becomes partially succesful in a kind of evasion. But Jim didn't create this reality. Jim didn't expect another magician to come and put his money where Jim's mouth is on all his public hype about cash gaurantees. The fact is that he is being outted as a huckster and he's not liking it. Does it matter that people already think he's a scam artist? Yes and no. It's important to have a concise and clear example that allows people to say "I'm not interested in anything Callahan says or does. He's a simple huckster and a pseudo-intellectual bore." He can try weasel maneuvers with his Phenomenom performance and Angel's challenge but no amount of footwork is going to evade him fleeing from Chad Sanborn's $25K offer to play Jim's way.

I think I can safely say that I don't believe that Callahan is in control, don't consider him to be anything but a simple huckster and pseudo intellectual bore (boor?) - and I applaud your effort here to establish that 'concise and clear example'.

I shall wait to comment further after Mr. Sanborn's anticipated response.

 

[kitakaze]

For anyone that has noted the transparency of Jim Callahan's claims to be in control and manipulating others in some type of thought provoking performance and has been wondering what is the best solution to counter his games without feeding into them I have some good news.

Both Arthwollipot and myself have noted that Callahan uses a very silly type of retconning to re-enforce the idea that he is successfully manipulating people. He sees suggestions by various members of what he may have been doing. If he likes the feel of a certain suggestion, he will latch on to it and add some embellishment and back story to make it appear as though he was employing it all along. When people respond to this objectionably he simply says that the person is further showing his abilities.

Both myself and another member, skeptigirl, noted in the Subliminal Compliance thread that any real adeptness at psychological manipualtion could be tested and should be easy to show. We both independantly suggested that to eliminate the obvious retconning that Callahan was using, that he inform a neutral person by pm of his planned manipulation before doing so. I took the suggestion further and offered that to ensure impartiality in the observer that moderator chillzero be designated as the one to receive the pm of Callahan's planned manipulation.

In skeptigirl's line of suggestion the target would have potentially been a teenaged boy. With no offence intended to that young man, I suggested that the targets be Arthwollipot, skeptigirl, and myself; there are definitely others but we are the first three that came to mind for examples of people that were not playing into Callahan's games. I suggested that Callahan could choose one but given the kind of proficiency he indicates he has for this non-paranormal psychological technique that he advertises on his website, he should very easily be able to manipulate the three of us either separately or in a collective fashion. I also suggested that if Callahan either declined, refused, or ignored the invitiation that it would qualify as more than sufficient evidence that he is full of it in terms of his claims of being in control and that the question would reach conclusion.

I think we can put an end to this kind of silliness and do so in a manner that doesn't involve pleasing Jim with the insults and personal comments that he is baiting. Also note that Jim claims to be creating realities and in doing so creating value. Jim has no claim to or control of any value to be gained in any of the discussions or activities I refer to. These things are accomplished not because of Jim's desires but rather in spite of them. Any claim otherwise is semantic and another example of the retconning he employs.

I would ask that anyone who would like to comment on this post please quote it then respond in the Subliminal Compliance (aka psychological manipulation thread) as it is just meant as a heads up.

 

[Jim Callahan]

His challenge was to James Randi, not Chris Sanborn. Chris Sanborn does not get him the attention he so desperately craves.

Hitch,

You got it.

However one correction should be made.
Publicity has value that I am interested in.

I think we can agree that is true for any business person.

Best Wishes,

Jim

PS. A couple of other things came into play between Chad & I however they will not be disscussed here.

 

[Hitch]

Rarely do you find someone so starved for attention that they're happy that you paid enough attention to them to point it out.

 

[Jim Callahan]

Rarely do you find someone so starved for attention that they're happy that you paid enough attention to them to point it out.

Oh now you are being a funny boy and attempting to be clever.

Hey but you did show a glimmer.

Well done I say.

-J im

H.o.A-X

 

[gdnp]

Hi, Jim.

I haven't read the details of your $25,000 challenge

You say you came to an understanding with Chad Sanborn, which we have yet to confirm.

Is your challenge still active? Perhaps someone else would like to take you up on it.

 

[kitakaze]

That's a very good question, gdnp. Many have sought clarification on Callahan's various cash challenges but failed to receive it. It's quite strange why Jim doesn't help to clear things up.