JFK -- Here we go again

[Non Believer]

I can't find a link to the photos, but I have copies here. There are a couple of people that have made statements about them, including Carl Renas who was head of security for Ford at Dearborn. He drove the limo from Dallas and reported the holes in the chrome strip around the windshield. That is confirmed in the pictures of the Limo parked at Parkland.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Excuse me, I may be naive, but what does it prove if the bullets could be shown not to be from the same batch? Or what does it prove if they're shown to be from the same batch? Can't one box of ammo hold bullets from different batches? Can't several boxes (carried by different shooters in the same conspiracy) hold bullets from the same batch?

Hans

 

[JimBenArm]

There are pictures of it. I know they confiscated the limo and had it destroyed within a couple of days, but the pictures of the bullet hles are fact. IO will try to dig them up for you.

Oh, yeah. "They" did it. Remind me again who "they" are this time?

 

[Pope130]

Excuse me, I may be naive, but what does it prove if the bullets could be shown not to be from the same batch? Or what does it prove if they're shown to be from the same batch? Can't one box of ammo hold bullets from different batches? Can't several boxes (carried by different shooters in the same conspiracy) hold bullets from the same batch?

Hans

Hans,
The shooting location in the book depository yielded three expended shell casings, all apparently from the same batch and showing no signs of reloading. The Warren Commision time line allows for three shots.
The presence of bullet fragments from a different batch would imply a fourth shot. This would invalidate the Warren time line or require a second shooter. The lack of evidence of a second shooter at the snipers nest (expended brass) could imply a second shooting location.

Robert

 

[DavidJames]

I can't find a link to the photos, but I have copies here. There are a couple of people that have made statements about them, including Carl Renas who was head of security for Ford at Dearborn. He drove the limo from Dallas and reported the holes in the chrome strip around the windshield. That is confirmed in the pictures of the Limo parked at Parkland.

Gee, NB is Kennedy hoaxer, I'm shocked.

 

[kookbreaker]

Its a crack.

Most likely from a bullet fragment or part of JFK's skull. It was not a full penetration of the windshield. The SS agent mentioned it was surrounded by blood and gore.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Hans,
The shooting location in the book depository yielded three expended shell casings, all apparently from the same batch and showing no signs of reloading. The Warren Commision time line allows for three shots.
The presence of bullet fragments from a different batch would imply a fourth shot. This would invalidate the Warren time line or require a second shooter. The lack of evidence of a second shooter at the snipers nest (expended brass) could imply a second shooting location.

Robert

Except that recent studies have shown that ingredient distribution within a batch of lead for bullets is not uniform, unlike prior assumptions. Making identifying bullet batches unreliable at best.

 

[Big Les]

Its a crack.

Most likely from a bullet fragment or part of JFK's skull. It was not a full penetration of the windshield. The SS agent mentioned it was surrounded by blood and gore.

This is an even better view, from this refutation.

Meanwhile, it's nice to see at least one intrepid conspiracy theorist has showed. What's not so nice is that you, Non Believer, have fallen into the old routine of sidestepping the debunking and introducing a new claim. And by "new" I mean "really old and also debunked".

Care to comment on the NAA evidence? Now's the time; we have a specialist in the field, right here.

 

[kookbreaker]

This is an even better view, from this refutation.

Oh look! Fetzer!

 

[SpitfireIX]

There are pictures of it. I know they confiscated the limo and had it destroyed within a couple of days, but the pictures of the bullet hles are fact. IO will try to dig them up for you.

JFK limousine at the Henry Ford Museum.

Note that the enclosed top was added after the assassination, for obvious reasons.

There were no "bullet holes" in the windshield. The windshield and frame were each struck by large bullet fragments from the head shot. Neither fragment penetrated, and the damage clearly came from the inside.

The windshield strike (note the blood spatters near the damaged area):

The frame strike:

 

[HyJinX]

JFK limousine at the Henry Ford Museum.

Note that the enclosed top was added after the assassination, for obvious reasons.

There were no "bullet holes" in the windshield. The windshield and frame were each struck by large bullet fragments from the head shot. Neither fragment penetrated, and the damage clearly came from the inside.

The windshield strike (note the blood spatters near the damaged area):

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/windshld.jpg

The frame strike:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce349.jpg

This PWNing is brought to you by SpitfireIX and the makers of MeowMix!

 

[SpitfireIX]

This is an even better view, from this refutation . . .

Outstanding debunking--I hadn't seen that one before.

 

[SpitfireIX]

This PWNing is brought to you by SpitfireIX and the makers of MeowMix!

[Darth Vader]All too easy.[/Darth Vader] I'll stamp another kill flag on the side of my plane. Seriously, though, Big Les deserves a lot of credit for pointing out that excellent debunking that I wasn't previously aware of. Non Believer is the first conspiracist I've ever encountered who claimed there were bullet holes in the windshield--I guess most of them are smart enough to know that's a non-starter.

 

[Pope130]

Except that recent studies have shown that ingredient distribution within a batch of lead for bullets is not uniform, unlike prior assumptions. Making identifying bullet batches unreliable at best.

Arkan,
Agreed.
I was responding to the question; "What would it mean if a bullet fragment from a seperate batch were found?" The study, as I understand it, does not say that there are indications of a different bullet, just that the earlier studies failed to conclusively exclude the presence of another. That's quite a bit different.
The whole field of bullet fragment alloy analysis has come into disrepute since the FBI Labs were shown to have made an unacceptably large number of false matches. One of the problems is that the alloy variation between bullets in one batch, or even different parts of one bullet, can be larger than the average difference between batches. The analysis is really only good for establishing general characteristics, and for excluding rather than matching.

Robert

 

[Big Les]

[Darth Vader]All too easy.[/Darth Vader] I'll stamp another kill flag on the side of my plane. Seriously, though, Big Les deserves a lot of credit for pointing out that excellent debunking that I wasn't previously aware of. Non Believer is the first conspiracist I've ever encountered who claimed there were bullet holes in the windshield--I guess most of them are smart enough to know that's a non-starter.

I was actually trying to find a suitable bullet hole in laminated glass for comparison purposes, and up popped that image. I followed it and lo and behold, instant pwnage! Great job by the way, back in time for tea and medals.

 

[Kenneth A. Rahn]

JFK--Here we go again

Somehow a JFK thread came and went while I was frolicking with Mickey in Florida last week. Sorry to resurrect this, but...

Connally also says that the shot that hit him was not the shot that hit JFK in the neck. For what that's worth.


The bystander was hit by something, and I've read that the most likely explanation is a chip of concrete, after a bullet fragment hit the curb near his feet. But, it is not at all clear which shot this fragment is from. It could be from the first, missing bullet, or it could be a fragment from the head shot. From the evidence I've seen, the third shot seems more likely, because of the angles involved.

I believe that Connally has always maintained that he was hit by the second shot. If you believe the evidence that the first shot missed, as I do, then he was right abut the second shot but wrong about a separate hit from Kennedy.

As for James Tague, there is pretty strong evidence that he was hit by a fragment from the third shot, not the second shot as he had claimed. The first shot would have hit the street at such a steep angle that it would have disintegrated, to say nothing of having a wrong horizontal angle. The bullet from the second shot remained intact except for a couple of tiny slivers in Connally's arm. But the third shot resulted in two or three large fragments of lead, only one of which was ever found. The horizontal angle through Kennedy and on to Tague works very well.

So it all works out if you just admit that the witnesses to this traumatic and unexpected event got some of it wrong.

Ken Rahn

 

[Kenneth A. Rahn]

Arkan,
Agreed.
I was responding to the question; "What would it mean if a bullet fragment from a seperate batch were found?" The study, as I understand it, does not say that there are indications of a different bullet, just that the earlier studies failed to conclusively exclude the presence of another. That's quite a bit different.
The whole field of bullet fragment alloy analysis has come into disrepute since the FBI Labs were shown to have made an unacceptably large number of false matches. One of the problems is that the alloy variation between bullets in one batch, or even different parts of one bullet, can be larger than the average difference between batches. The analysis is really only good for establishing general characteristics, and for excluding rather than matching.

Robert

Robert,

Unfortunately, your basic argument is apples and oranges. The FBI matching technique that was abandoned was trying to match a bullet or fragment from a crime scene with a box of bullets possessed by a suspect but held away from the crime scene. The JFK case is much more restricted (simpler), with all five fragments coming from the crime scene. These two cases should not be tarred with the same brush.

Furthermore, the NRC report that stimulated so much discussion did not require the FBI to abandon the chemical matching technique. The endorsed the technique, but recommended that the FBI tighten its procedures and the way it testified in court.

As for earlier studies failing to exclude the presence of a third bullet, Larry Sturdivan and I estimated a 2% to 3% probability of an accidental match with a third Mannlicher-Carcano bullet. People have forgotten that we faced this situation head-on and gave hard numbers for it. It is almost amusing that one of the 30 bullets in the new NAA study (3%) matched one of the assassination fragments. They didn't acknowledge our earlier prediction, of course.

Ken Rahn

 

[Kenneth A. Rahn]

[Darth Vader]All too easy.[/Darth Vader] I'll stamp another kill flag on the side of my plane. Seriously, though, Big Les deserves a lot of credit for pointing out that excellent debunking that I wasn't previously aware of. Non Believer is the first conspiracist I've ever encountered who claimed there were bullet holes in the windshield--I guess most of them are smart enough to know that's a non-starter.

SpitfireIX,

Actually, quite a few conspiracists have claimed that there was a through-and-through hole in the windshield, even though there clearly were only a dent and some cracks on the rear side. Maybe those conspiracists were not smart enough to be posting here.

Ken Rahn

 

[Kenneth A. Rahn]

There are pictures of it. I know they confiscated the limo and had it destroyed within a couple of days, but the pictures of the bullet hles are fact. IO will try to dig them up for you.

Nonbeliever,

Sorry, but there were no holes in the windshield. The people who first examined it were quite clear about this. Cracks and dents, yes; holes, no.

Ken Rahn

 

[Kenneth A. Rahn]

Except that recent studies have shown that ingredient distribution within a batch of lead for bullets is not uniform, unlike prior assumptions. Making identifying bullet batches unreliable at best.

Arkan,

The problem in the JFK case is identifying the number of bullets, not the number of batches they might represent. The well-defined log-normal distribution of antimony in the four lots of Mannlicher-Carcano bullets allows this to be done to a probability of 97% to 98%. There is only a 2% to 3% chance that a third bullet contributed to the five fragments that fell into the two obvious groups.

Ken Rahn