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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Lifton and his sock puppet here never question the veracity of their witnesses who spout "unusual" testimonies, as if their witnesses aren't liars, or tale spinners who can't say "I don't know" and will spin some yarn just to lead on the "researcher", as with those "witnesses" about the body alterations.
Some people just can't not place themselves in the middle of an action they had nothing to do with, given the opportunity to snow a naive person (Lifton and his puppet) who is ready to hear -anything- that can spun into a conspiracy.
 
Relying on eyewitness testimony when there is physical evidence and recorded evidence is daft, and when eyewitness and physical evidence conflict, 99.999% of the time, it is the eye-witnesses who are wrong, even if they truely believe what they are saying.

John McAdams, one of Robert's bête noirs, has written a book on evaluating JFK conspiracy theories the first two chapters of which deal in large part with this issue. Both chapters are available to read on Google Books.
 
Eye-witness statements that are contemporaneous are not lost over time.

However here you are only taking into consideration memory issues, you are forgetting perception issues. People can perceive things incorrectly or even have their perception changed very rapidly, and when they get things wrong after just a few minutes, hours, or days, we're usually dealing with perception issues.

For example, witnesses to a car crash were all asked to estimate the speed of car at the time of the crash. Just by asking the question with a different word (smashed vs collided) the witnesses' estimates of the speed differed by around 25mph, yet all of them had seen the exact same event and the questioning was mere minutes after their seeing it occur.

Talking about the event and what was seen with colleagues, family, friends, and police, all have the potential to start shifting the perceptions of what was and was not seen. Even just thinking about it and comtemplating what happened can allow the brain to start "filling in the gaps" and creating false parts to the memory within a few hours.

The issue is not that we forget things and lose the memory, it's that our brains don't act as cameras and record things in a never changing manner, in fact our memories are very fluid, fragile, and malleable in ways that we still don't often understand and are often just coming to grips with. This is one reason that police now days have to be so incredibly careful interveiwing people, because it is so easy to create false memories and overide the real stuff by asking the wrong type of questions that lead the brain to start filling in the gaps.

And when virtually all 20 of the witnesses at a scene report the same observations, the veracity is substantial.

Based on certain assumptions. First we have the issue with perception and memory. Second we have the issue with interpretation and reporting. Witness testimony is seldom perfectly clear, and the same is true of this case. Many of the witnesses who claimed that the "back" of Kennedy's head was missing, when asked to draw or show where the wound was, place that wound above slightly behind the right ear. That is to the back of the head, but it is certainly not the very back of the head, which many Conspriacy writers try to claim, and is consistant with a shot from the rear and above, as seen in the Z. footage.

This is why Eyewitness testimony is so poor. Even when it is give first hand there are serious issues with it, when it is given second hand with the advantage of spin and selective interpretation, it is beyond useless.
 
John McAdams, one of Robert's bête noirs, has written a book on evaluating JFK conspiracy theories the first two chapters of which deal in large part with this issue. Both chapters are available to read on Google Books.

John seems to have been reading my Psychology Textbooks....
 
Where's The Exit Wound, Robert?

First the obvious but necessary explanation of entrance as versus exit wounds caused by a bullet.

From: Explore Forensics
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/entrance-and-exit-wounds.html

Understanding Injuries > Entrance and Exit Wounds
Entrance and Exit Wounds
Author: Jack Claridge - Updated: 20 July 2010 | Comment
Entrance And Exit Wounds Gun Shot Bullet

"...The entrance wound is normally smaller and quite symmetrical in comparison to the exit wound..,."

"Exit wounds...are usually larger than the entrance wound and this is because as the round moves through the body of the victim it slows down and explodes within the tissue and surrounding muscle. This slowing down of the projectile means that as it reaches the end of its trajectory it has to force harder to push through. This equates to the exit wound normally looking larger and considerably more destructive than its pre-cursor - the entrance wound."

In the graphic below we see (clockwise from upper left) Zapruder frames Z312, Z314, Z315 and Z316.

In Z314 (upper right) you can see blood and brain matter exiting from the front of JFK's head which looks like... an exit wound exactly as described in Robert's quote. :eye-poppi

In Z316 (lower right) you can see a small red circle on the back of JFK's head which looks like... an entry wound exactly as described in Robert's quote. :eye-poppi

fullcmpuu0.jpg


This confirms the statement of Dr. Baden I quoted earlier.

One of the most important aspects of the Zapruder film, often overlooked by the critics, are the frames immediately after the President was shot in the head. It's very clear on the enhanced frames that there is a wound over the right ear, but the back of the head is clean. That film is incontrovertible evidence that there was no defect on the rear of the head.

Dr. Michael Baden, Chairman of the HSCA Forensic Panel (Posner, pp. 309-310)


But we must discard this visual evidence because it conflicts with the cherry-picked statements of Robert's beloved Parkland Hospital "witnesses". :confused:

I see a shot from the front blowing out his head producing a predictable jet effect spray of blood, brain and tissue. You see only what you want to see. I also see Jackie turning around to the trunk to try to retrieve a chunk of the JFK's brain blown away from the back of his head. But it's all subject to interpretation, which is why my proof of a second shooter lies in the un-assailable statements of the Parkland Personnel, not the Z film.

At this point we can officially declare Robert a hopeless case.
 
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Hopeless. And hypocritical. His case relies on some witness accounts being more honest and reliable thanothers. He says this is because they were before the evidence was hidden and altered, ignoringof course he has offered no proof of this. It is conjecture.

So he proves something with conjecture? Ok, here's a motive for fraud. The guy who was suppossed to be saving the president actually went to work on the wrong victim. 19 other people all thought they were looking at JFK either because he said so, or after the fact the hospital applied pressure on them to saveface.

Utter b*ll*cks of course. But what prevents this conjecture being a firm reason that we should NOT accept the word of the hospital staff? It is no less believable than simply saying the auopsy was somehow dishonest. Or the zupruder film analysis was wrong. Etc.

There seems a real issue with Robert supplying actual evidence to support the statements he claimsare more accurate. There is a grave issue with his failure to either prove they are more accurate or disprove the other narratives.

So why do the autopsy photographs show an entry wound that matches Walters frames on the z film?

And if the answer is "its a fake" or "the head was altered" I want evidence and I want an explanation of how.

I suspect i will get neither.
 
Hopeless. And hypocritical. His case relies on some witness accounts being more honest and reliable thanothers. He says this is because they were before the evidence was hidden and altered, ignoringof course he has offered no proof of this. It is conjecture.


The McAdams book I mentioned above, Assassination Logic: How to Think about Claims of Conspiracy, has some interesting things to say about the selective use of witness accounts.

It is common for conspiracy theorists to parade a bunch of witnesses, all of whom give testimony supporting a conspiracy, and the ask, could all of these witness be wrong?

---------

The tour de force of selectively using testimony to reach a particular conclusion can be found in an essay by Gary Aguilar, who claims to have examined the testimony of forty-six witnesses to Kennedy's wounds at Parkland Hospital and Bethesda Naval Hospital. Augilar found that forty-four of them saw a wound to the "back of the head," contradicting the autopsy photos and X-rays and suggesting a shot from the grassy knoll.

To reach this number, however, Aguilar has to be massively selective in the testimony he uses and quite tendentious in how he interprets it.

McAdams, p. 28

Aguilar's essay can be read here.
 
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So basically it comes down to: "Are you going to believe my cherry-picked quotes or your own lying eyes?".

Citing quotes from perhaps 7 or 8 witnesses out of 20 or so, all of whom share the same observations, is not "cherry-picking." It would be cherry-picking if the others, not quoted gave contrary accounts. But they do not. If they do, then name one.
 
Right, and the autopsy was all lies then? Or are you going to claim the pathologists who carried out the autopsy were more capable of being frauds or wrong than other doctors?

Seriously, please just answer the direct question for once...

In a word, Yes.
 
According to what evidence?
How was it recreated?
How was it hidden?

You are not seriously suggesting the Best Evidence story about JFK having his wounds altered?

No, lets stick to the important question at hand: Which witnesses at Parkland saw the falsified body. The ones who claimed the shot was from the front or the rear? How do you KNOW those were the ones telling the truth? What makes the conflicting statements wrong?

There were no conflicting Parkland witnesses. If there were, then name one.
 
"I was going to say I see a ducky and a horsey, but I changed my mind"

Robert, why is there no spray though the hole you claim is in the rear of Kennedy's skull?


Because in the back of the head, there is little blood and tissue, only bone and brain, which have been instantly blown out the back and onto the trunk, as you can see Jackie's instant reaction trying to retrieve them here.
 
T
"It is common for conspiracy theorists to parade a bunch of witnesses, all of whom give testimony supporting a conspiracy, and the ask, could all of these witness be wrong?.


It is also common for any prosecutor or defense attorney to do the same. And it is also common for anti-conspiracy theorists to parade of bunch of witnesses, all who give the same testimony supporting an anti-conspiracy theories. Unfortunately, for the latter, it is a very, very small "parade."
 
Aguilar's essay can be read here.


Why thank you Walter, that list of Parkland witnesses cited by Dr. Aguilar is far more extensive than I bothered to include. With those additional witnesses now on record, I just don't know how the case for a shot from the front could be more over-whelming. All you guys have left now, is back to your Z film fantasies.
 
There were no conflicting Parkland witnesses. If there were, then name one.

No. But there are statements that conflict with Parkland witnesses. I wonder why you fail to make that distinction?

And by the way, where is the evidence your parkland witnesses are more honest than those with conflicting statements? Or that the autopsy was a fraud? Why answer "in a word" without citation or evidence?
 
So all we are left with is the Z film fantasy.

Oh wait, and the autopsy. And the photographs. And the witness statements of people who saw JFK shot from behind.

And all Robert is left to supply is; material evidence to support winess testimony. Evidence the witness testimony he selects is more reliable than those it conflicts with. Evidence the z film was faked. Evidence the autopsy was fraudulant.

Wow. He hasn't discredited the weight of evidence, and has no material support for testemonials. Why is it rob you demand others be able to prove "your" witnessess false, but accept the oppossing views to be lies with out question? Hmmm.
 
So all we are left with is the Z film fantasy.

Oh wait, and the autopsy. And the photographs. And the witness statements of people who saw JFK shot from behind.

And all Robert is left to supply is; material evidence to support winess testimony. Evidence the witness testimony he selects is more reliable than those it conflicts with. Evidence the z film was faked. Evidence the autopsy was fraudulant.

Wow. He hasn't discredited the weight of evidence, and has no material support for testemonials. Why is it rob you demand others be able to prove "your" witnessess false, but accept the oppossing views to be lies with out question? Hmmm.

Which opposing views? Name one. You people sure have a problem with specificity.
 
No. But there are statements that conflict with Parkland witnesses. I wonder why you fail to make that distinction?

And by the way, where is the evidence your parkland witnesses are more honest than those with conflicting statements? Or that the autopsy was a fraud? Why answer "in a word" without citation or evidence?

Already cited Doug Horne of the Assassinations Record Review Board and others as well, including * "Floyd Riebe, one of the two autopsy photographers, has stated that did NOT take ANY of the photos in evidence. The other photographer, James Stringer, stated in a taped interview that he did NOT take the photos of the back of the head, which show that area intact, contrary to the testimony of literally dozens of credible witnesses...."
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/griffith/Problems_with_X-rays_and_photos.html

Anything else?
 
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Anything else? How about some material testable evidence to support witness statements. Well done for the citation, now answer the body of the question.
 
I see a shot from the front blowing out his head producing a predictable jet effect spray of blood, brain and tissue. You see only what you want to see. I also see Jackie turning around to the trunk to try to retrieve a chunk of the JFK's brain blown away from the back of his head. But it's all subject to interpretation, which is why my proof of a second shooter lies in the un-assailable statements of the Parkland Personnel, not the Z film.

No, that contradicts what you posted earlier about entry and exit wounds. The ejecta from the right front blowing out is an exit wound. Could you post a video or something where there is a jet effect towards the direction a bullet is coming from rather than the way physics works in the real world?

Did they switch Kennedy's head on the way to Parkland? Did someone else shoot Kennedy from the front after the end of the Zapruder film so that we don't see it?

(thanks for so much Stundie material)
 
I also see Jackie turning around to the trunk to try to retrieve a chunk of the JFK's brain blown away from the back of his head.

:jaw-dropp

Quite apart from the fact that, if you can tell from the film why Jackie was turning around like that, then you're eligible for a million dollar prize...

...she was trying to retrieve a chunk of his brain?!?!?!?!?

Seriously?

Dave
 
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