Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

[HSienzant]

Continued from here.

Posted By: LashL

So it was all just a big, whopping coincidence. Let's see:

* Brading goes to New Orleans a few weeks before the assassination and "just happens" to use an office next to the office of Mafia kingpin Carlos Marcello's attorney, and by "sheer coincidence" David Ferrie frequently visited that same office. Gosh, figure the odds, hey?
* Brading, two days before the assassination, travels to Dallas with--whaddaya know!--four Mafia guys.
* Brading and his Mafia buddies check into the same hotel where, the very next day, Jack Ruby meets Lawrence Myers. Wow, cosmic "chance" again!
* Brading and his Mafia pals visit the Hunt office the same day that Jack Ruby does. Humm, figure the odds that Brading and Ruby would "just happen" to visit the same hotel and then go to the same office building and visit the same office within 24 hours.
* Brading is not only in Dealey Plaza during the shooting, but he goes into the Dal-Tex Building, the same building from which a number of witnesses believed shots were fired--and when asked what he was doing in Dealey Plaza and why he entered the Dal-Tex Building, Brading gives answers that a rookie detective could spot as implausible and suspect, not to mention contradictory.

You must be kidding to dismiss all of this evidence as mere chance. But to believe in the lone-gunman theory, you have no choice but to do so.

Please name the verifiable Dealey Plaza witnesses [plural] that thought shots came from the TSBD. Citations would be nice.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

This is simply erroneous. You cherry-pick a handful of specific frames and conclude that there was no line of sight to JFK from the Dal-Tex Building.
To make matters worse, many on your side suggest that the alleged sixth-floor gunman fired at JFK when the limo was beneath the oak tree, i.e., when the oak tree was between the gunman and the limo.



Sigh. . . . When given the chance to explain, Willis stated that he heard shots from both directions.

And, uh, if the fact that Rosemary Willis turned to look back at the TSBD indicates that shots came from that direction, what do you say about the fact that a number of people turned to look toward the grassy knoll? If one person turning to look back means shots from the TSBD, then several people turning to look toward the grassy knoll should logically mean shots from the grassy knoll. It's not either/or. Shots came from the front and from the rear.

That's not what Phil Willis' testimony was in 1964 before the Warren Commission....

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/willis_p.htm

...
Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots were fired altogether, Mr. Willis?
Mr. WILLIS. Three shots.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that at all?
Mr. WILLIS. No, sir.
...
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually observe the President when he was hit in head?
Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. I couldn't see that well, and I was more concerned about the shots coming from that building. The minute the third shot was fired, I screamed, hoping the policeman would hear me, to ring that building because it had to come from there. Being directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the street where the building was.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building at the time when you heard shots?
Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.
Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that?
Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure?
Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up....

Five years later, it's still NOT what he was saying (testimony at the Clay Shaw trial).
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/willis_pshaw.htm

...
Q: I show you what the State has previously identified as S-33 and I ask you whether or not this is the photograph that you took at the time you said you heard the first shot?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: After having taken this photograph, Mr. Willis, what did you do?
A: My two little daughters were running along down the hill paralleling the Presidential car there and I yelled to one of them, which is the firs thing I did, and then I heard at least two more shots and then I started looking for them and looking down and hollering for them to come back to me and they came running back crying.
...
Q: While in Dealey Plaza after having heard the first shot that made you take that one picture, will you tell us whether or not you heard any other noises similar to the first noise?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many did you hear all told?
A: I assumed two more.
Q: So it'd be a total of three, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you tell us the area in which you heard these shots coming from?
A: I was looking down here and I felt certain that they came from my right in that area across there.
Q: Mr. Willis, did you have occasion to see any affect that any shot may have had on any occupants in the Presidential limousine?
A: Honestly, no, sir, because I was trying to use the view finder for the camera and I was more interested in getting the whole car than focusing on an individual. I did not.
MR. OSER: I tender the witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mr. Willis, you say that to the best of your recollection, in considering the circumstances of excitement, that you heard three shots, is that right, sir?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now as I understand it, Mr. Willis, you were standing here at the point indicated by the flag with your name on it on State Exhibit-35, is that correct?
A: Yes, sir, by that tree.
Q: And you say you were looking down here, and by down here do you mean down Stemmons Freeway?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And you say the shots came from your right, is that correct?
A: They sounded as if they did.
Q: Is it not a fact that the Texas Book Depository was to your right?
A: Sir?
Q: Was the Texas Book Depository to your right?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: That is all, sir.

Three shots, from the TSBD. In his testimony to the WC and in the Shaw trial. He said nothing about hearing shots from two different places in the first five years after the assassination. You got something decades later, I presume, when his memory was not as strong and he was possibly influenced by books about a conspiracy and a grassy knoll shooter?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

No, I meant "evidence."



They are. (Well, actually, Brading traveled to Dallas with three Mafia guys, not four. I was including Brading in the count.)



Because the patsy was not framed in that building. There's also the fact that Dallas authorities failed to do even minimal investigation of the two men who were arrested in/coming out of the Dal-Tex Building.

This said, if memory serves, there is some photographic evidence of a shot from the Dal-Tex Building (a bystander seeming to react to a startling event, such as a gun shot), though I might be thinking of the County Records Building.

No, you're thinking of an allegation by Harold Weisberg, who claimed in WHITEWASH or PHOTOGRAPHIC WHITEWASH, or both, that the person sitting on the fire escape in the Altgens photo appeared to be "in some distress" but claimed that the magnification available did not allow him to ascertain anything further.

But the image shows nothing of the sort, and neither do other images showing the man on the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building.

In short, you're remembering the claim, but not the fact that there's no evidence behind it. If you beg to differ, present the evidence of "a bystander seeming to react to a startling event".

Thanks much.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

So it was all just a big, whopping coincidence. Let's see:

* Brading goes to New Orleans a few weeks before the assassination and "just happens" to use an office next to the office of Mafia kingpin Carlos Marcello's attorney, and by "sheer coincidence" David Ferrie frequently visited that same office. Gosh, figure the odds, hey?

Source for these allegations? Evidence for these allegations?

* Brading, two days before the assassination, travels to Dallas with--whaddaya know!--four Mafia guys.

Source for these allegations? Evidence for these allegations?

* Brading and his Mafia buddies check into the same hotel where, the very next day, Jack Ruby meets Lawrence Myers. Wow, cosmic "chance" again!

Source for these allegations? Evidence for these allegations?

* Brading and his Mafia pals visit the Hunt office the same day that Jack Ruby does. Humm, figure the odds that Brading and Ruby would "just happen" to visit the same hotel and then go to the same office building and visit the same office within 24 hours.

Source for these allegations? Evidence for these allegations?

* Brading is not only in Dealey Plaza during the shooting, but he goes into the Dal-Tex Building, the same building from which a number of witnesses believed shots were fired--and when asked what he was doing in Dealey Plaza and why he entered the Dal-Tex Building, Brading gives answers that a rookie detective could spot as implausible and suspect, not to mention contradictory.

Source for these allegations? Evidence for these allegations?

You must be kidding to dismiss all of this evidence as mere chance. But to believe in the lone-gunman theory, you have no choice but to do so.

Allegations. I think when we trace a lot of this back, it's going be conjectures or suppositions on your part. Not verifiable.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Regarding my references to Brading using an office in New Orleans that was next to the office of Carlos Marcello's attorney, I'm assuming everyone here knows who Marcello was and that you're aware of the evidence that has surfaced about Marcello's role in the JFK assassination.

We know from the 1985 FBI prison files that bugs placed in Marcello's cell recorded him saying in reference to JFK, "Yeah, I had the son of a bitch killed. I'm glad I did. I'm sorry I couldn't have done it myself!" The released FBI cell microphone transcripts also reveal that Marcello stated that that he used Jack Ruby to kill Oswald.

All of this information on Marcello is discussed in detail in Lamar Waldron's book Legacy of Secrecy: The Long Shadow of the JFK Assassination, published in 2009. (The trade paperback version has three new chapters, an expanded photo-document section, and updated text throughout.)

Of course, there was substantial evidence that tied Marcello to the JFK assassination before the 1985 FBI files were released, but those files make the case against Marcello even stronger.

That's funny. The Justice Dept under Bobby Kennedy had wiretaps of all the major Mafia Dons and not one hint of an assassination attempt surfaced.

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1c.html#crime

What 'substantial evidence' is there that ties Marcello to the JFK assassination?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

IOW, you're not interested in a substantive discussion on the evidence.

It's a simple point: If Rosemary Willis's act of looking backward toward the TSBD indicates a shot from behind,

That's a pretty big IF. Her dad was yelling at her to get back. According to his 1964 testimony.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the car down Elm Street after you took the picture, which we have marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. WILLIS. I proceeded down the street and didn't take any other pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately about 2 seconds apart, and I knew my little daughters were running along beside the Presidential car, and I was immediately concerned about them, and I was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't hear me. But I was concerned about them immediately, because I knew something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. I knew it hit something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like that, so it impressed me, I remember, and after I found my daughters, I saw they were heading back toward their mother.

So it's curious you base your conclusion on her stoppage and looking back, when we know for a fact her dad was behind her and calling out to her, according to his own testimony.

...then numerous other bystanders' act of turning to look toward the grassy knoll logically indicates a shot from the front. And then there's the fact that a number of witnesses saw what clearly appeared to be gun smoke rising from a spot on the knoll, not to mention the fact that at least one patrolmen stopped his bike, jumped off, and charged up the knoll,

What did he testify to? Why did he run up the knoll? Please name and quote him.

and the fact that some people on the knoll dropped to the ground because they heard shots whizzing by them from behind (and one of those bystanders was a combat vet who knew the sound of bullets passing nearby you).

You're talking about Newman? In the TV trial in London, where he testified, where did he indicate the shots came from? Please tell us.

We also have acoustical evidence of a shot from the grassy knoll (and before you cite the NRC's pseudo-scientific reply, read physicist Dr. G. Paul Chambers' rebuttal to the NRC arguments).

Based on studying the wrong area of the tape.

We also have photographic evidence of the smoke above the knoll, the same smoke that a number of witnesses reported seeing.

What photographic evidence of smoke on the knoll? What did Weitzman testify was behind the knoll? Steam pipes.

Mr. WEITZMAN - I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.
Mr. BALL - What is the location of that wall?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the monument section?
Mr. BALL - That's where Elm actually dead ends?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands grabbed steampipes. I burned them.

So, are you certain what you have evidence for is smoke? or is it steam?

Hank

 

[BStrong]

IOW, you're not interested in a substantive discussion on the evidence.

It's a simple point: If Rosemary Willis's act of looking backward toward the TSBD indicates a shot from behind, then numerous other bystanders' act of turning to look toward the grassy knoll logically indicates a shot from the front. And then there's the fact that a number of witnesses saw what clearly appeared to be gun smoke rising from a spot on the knoll, not to mention the fact that at least one patrolmen stopped his bike, jumped off, and charged up the knoll, and the fact that some people on the knoll dropped to the ground because they heard shots whizzing by them from behind (and one of those bystanders was a combat vet who knew the sound of bullets passing nearby you).

We also have acoustical evidence of a shot from the grassy knoll (and before you cite the NRC's pseudo-scientific reply, read physicist Dr. G. Paul Chambers' rebuttal to the NRC arguments). We also have photographic evidence of the smoke above the knoll, the same smoke that a number of witnesses reported seeing.

I have a very simple answer.

Supersonic projectiles create a mini sonic boom when they pass objects or terrain features, clearly audible downrange. There's also a good case to be made for echos from the original muzzle blast to have confused ear witnesses.

And in the second bolded you report the phenomenon itself, although I disagree with your conclusion.

 

[pgwenthold]

Well that's true and I even have my doubts that a place called 'Dallas' actually exists. I mean who would name a real city after a TV soap opera?

Mary Crosby, daughter of Bing Crosby, played Kristin on the TV show Dallas, and Kristin was the one who shot JR Ewing, played by Larry Hagman, who, of course, played an astronaut in I Dream of Jeanie. Larry Hagman's mother was Mary Martin, who was a Kennedy Center Honoree in 1989.

Coincidence? I think not. What was Bing Crosby doing on that day?

 

[Hans]

Mary Crosby, daughter of Bing Crosby, played Kristin on the TV show Dallas, and Kristin was the one who shot JR Ewing, played by Larry Hagman, who, of course, played an astronaut in I Dream of Jeanie. Larry Hagman's mother was Mary Martin, who was a Kennedy Center Honoree in 1989.

Coincidence? I think not. What was Bing Crosby doing on that day?

And Jennie was an Arab....the plot thickens me thinks!

 

[Tomtomkent]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_Wendell_Thornley

So how many of the LHO "was a patsy" theorists ever bothered to read Idle Warriors and find out how mixed up the poor kid was?

 

[manifesto]

Anybody knows if there's witness testimony of smell of gunpowder on the 6th floor of the TSBD?

 

[catsmate]

Anybody knows if there's witness testimony of smell of gunpowder on the 6th floor of the TSBD?

I doubt it, only three shots and a relatively large room with open windows. Plus nitro powders don't produce much residue.

 

[manifesto]

I doubt it, only three shots and a relatively large room with open windows. Plus nitro powders don't produce much residue.

1. Lots of testimonies of smelling gunpowder in the motorcade and on the "grassy knoll".

2. No smell of gunpowder inside 6th floor TSBD from three high powered rifle rounds minutes after the shooting.


Do you have any experience with nitro powders exploding inside a room? It smells for days even if you leave the windows wide open. Why is there no witness talking of the smell?

 

[thedopefishlives]

1. Lots of testimonies of smelling gunpowder in the motorcade and on the "grassy knoll".

2. No smell of gunpowder inside 6th floor TSBD from three high powered rifle rounds minutes after the shooting.


Do you have any experience with nitro powders exploding inside a room? It smells for days even if you leave the windows wide open. Why is there no witness talking of the smell?

Where are these testimonies? I'd be interested to know who is talking about gunpowder smells from the knoll and the motorcade, both outdoor environments where any such smell would dissipate quickly from a small-volume source like a gun.

 

[catsmate]

1. Lots of testimonies of smelling gunpowder in the motorcade and on the "grassy knoll".

Utterly worthless.

2. No smell of gunpowder inside 6th floor TSBD <snip>

Perfectly reasonable.

...three high powered rifle rounds minutes after the shooting.

"High powered"? By what standards?

Do you have any experience with nitro powders exploding inside a room?

Lots. And in rooms far smaller than Oswald's firing position, with less ventilation and in far greater quantities than ~75 grains.

It smells for days even if you leave the windows wide open.

Nope.

Why is there no witness talking of the smell?

Did anyone ask them?

 

[manifesto]

Utterly worthless.

Of course, why didn't I think of that ...

Perfectly reasonable.

Of course, why didn't I think of that ...

"High powered"? By what standards?

Warren Report, Summary, page 5.

When the shots were fired, a Dallas motorcycle patrolman, Marrion L. Baker, was riding in the motorcade at a point several cars behind the President. He had turned right from Main Street onto Houston Street. and was about 200 feet. south of Elm Street when he heard a shot.. Baker, having recently returned from a week of deer hunting, was certain the shot, came from a high-powered rifle.

Lots. And in rooms far smaller than Oswald's firing position, with less ventilation and in far greater quantities than ~75 grains.

Maybe you have a problem in the olfactory department?

Nope.

Of course, why didn't I think of that ...

Did anyone ask them?

If there was a smell of gunpowder in and around the so called snipers nest, it would be a highly significant finding to report, don't you think?

 

[thedopefishlives]

So, you got any of those witnesses to gunpowder smell in the motorcade and on the grassy knoll? Or are you deliberately avoiding my question?

 

[catsmate]

Of course, why didn't I think of that ...

Because you look at the world through a conspiratorial filter?

Of course, why didn't I think of that ...

Ditto

Warren Report, Summary, page 5.

Maybe you have a problem in the olfactory department?

Nope. Of course I don't suffer from a desperate need to distort facts to support my opinions either

Of course, why didn't I think of that ...

See point 1.

If there was a smell of gunpowder in and around the so called snipers nest, it would be a highly significant finding to report, don't you think?

No not really. Three medium rifle shots, fired out a window (and thus with most of the propellant gases exiting immediately) wouldn't leave much residue, and that would have dissipated.

I note that you've utterly failed to address my points are resorting to the argument from incredulity fallacy. Nor have you provided any evidence whatsoever to support your assertions.

 

[Tomtomkent]

So. No evidence there should be a smell. No evidence if a smell was there or not. No reason the smell would be noticable in open air.

Why should this be considered anything but outlaying reports from falliable humans?

 

[thedopefishlives]

So. No evidence there should be a smell. No evidence if a smell was there or not. No reason the smell would be noticable in open air.

Why should this be considered anything but outlaying reports from falliable humans?

He/she hasn't even told us who these witnesses are or where we can find their testimonies. We're supposed to just take it on faith that "people" said this, and therefore, that it happened.