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Jew Haters and Nazi Apologists

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From my point of view, which is that of someone who gets so pissed off at deniers that her brain melts and floats out the ears, I find it somewhat useful that they seem to congregate here.

Let me explain: for personal reasons denires piss me off so badly the utter nonsense of their position oftentimes leaves me dumb, because I don't know where to start. Their incoherent idiocies often came as complete surprises and since a lot of the things they do is to spout made up stuff, you have no refute in the situation because you want to check sources before you go there.

The fact that they (and anti-vaxxers etc) come here and let us know ahead of time which memes we can expect from them for a while and where people who don't get mad, but get researching, hang out means that when I hear someone dropping one of those arguments I don't just stand there gaping at the sheer nonsense, but I have actually heard it before and I know where to look for a refute - or, if I'm lucky it's one of the arguments whose counter arguments have actually stuck in my brain, because I have had time to ponder it.

I do grant you that it is depressing to see how many of those threads are started but I'm not sure I would prefer to not know what deniers are up to at the moment.

As for its own subforum, well that's tricky. Because even though no one would argue that JREF believes 9/11 was an inside job just because a subforum is provided for its discussion, people tend to go a bit weird regarding the inflammatory subject of the shoah. I do not for one second doubt that JREF-haters would at least try to use its existence to Godwin the crap out of all of us. Granted, they mightn't succeed but there would be time and energy spent trying to explain why that notion is wrong. Every time someone tries to pull that one. And that would be more or less every time some wooster gets pissed with JREF.

I do share your frustration, but I also share Thunder's notion.

Oh, and LGR - It's Doctor Cox's and JD's pre-natal lice story all over again: I'm not buying it.
 
Walter Ego said:
Or as they commonly known... Holocaust deniers (I will not use the hygienic euphemism "historical revisionists". Real historians revise history all the time for legitimate reasons.)

What other motives could there possibly be for this odious cultural vandalism?

For those of you who are not antisemites or Hitler cuddlers, should we be validating these people by engaging them in debate or even giving them the snarky ridicule they deserve?

I'll admit I stopped reading this forum when the denial and Hitler apologetic threads began to dominate the board (and there are several cresting right now).

Would it be out of line to request of the mods that a new sub forum be created to put a cordon sanitaire around the deniers and those who wish to pay footsie with them?
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I don't engage in debate with them (or try not to) but I do think it's important that they be belittled and ridiculed. It should be clear to anyone that if you go down this rabbit hole what you're in for.
 
Craig4 said:
I don't engage in debate with them (or try not to) but I do think it's important that they be belittled and ridiculed. It should be clear to anyone that if you go down this rabbit hole what you're in for.
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They should be derided. I am also interested in the perverse pyschology of the denier.
 
dafydd said:
They should be derided. I am also interested in the perverse pyschology of the denier.
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The operative word in this is "perverse." Never mind the evidence, they're hell bent on "defending Germany's honor," or "persevering in the name of the Truth," or some other semi-honorable claim, all of which fails to mask their true belief(s). It's ultimately an act of intellectual and moral cowardice on the deniers' part.

I realize JREF's state mission includes the declaration that it's supposed to be about discussion in a "lively and FRIENDLY way," but these people simply mask their hate enough to fit within the rules. Ultimately, they're shills for gutless wonders like Stormfront and the White Aryan Resistance, even if they aren't members themselves. That they espouse the failed teachings of a defeated ideology shows just what kind of imbeciles they are. Say what you like about DOC, for one, the reality is that he has NEVER espoused this kind of anti-Semitism. He might be a god-bot, but he's not a hater. At least, not to my knowledge.

I'm personally of the opinion that they need to be challenged, publicly, harshly, and directly. By keeping the gloves on in regards to declarations that are so incendiary, particularly in light of the evidence of what happens when they aren't challenged, (i.e., Tim McVeigh), we feed these trolls, stoking the fires that build until something does happen. We already see what happens when this kind of filth is allowed to run loose in the Real World, and I'm not prepared to see it perpetuated on this side of it, either.
 
We tried the silent treatment on them in Sweden and the only thing that achieved was that their views were unchallenged to the point where they convinced enough ignoratii that their lame attempt at an "acceptable face" organization actually won seats in the Riksdag (app: Parlament).

By the time the established parties were ready to debate and refute, it was too late. Idiots had already bought their rhetoric.

Pull them out into the light and pick them apart. Ignoring them only gives them shade to grow in.
 
I notice over on the rabbit hole that is the David Icke forum some one started a thread about the number attacks on Jews in the UK being on the increase and everyone who posted thought this was a good thing, someone even listed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a reason why Jews deserve to be attacked, are there still people out there who believe that was real? In fact reading the posts it seems that to the frothing at the mouth brigade every evil in the world is the fault of the JOOOOOS
 
whatthebutlersaw said:
From my point of view, which is that of someone who gets so pissed off at deniers that her brain melts and floats out the ears, I find it somewhat useful that they seem to congregate here.

Let me explain: for personal reasons denires piss me off so badly the utter nonsense of their position oftentimes leaves me dumb, because I don't know where to start. Their incoherent idiocies often came as complete surprises and since a lot of the things they do is to spout made up stuff, you have no refute in the situation because you want to check sources before you go there.
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Yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!

I always find myself standing there in complete disbelief of what I'm hearing.

And what I read here doesn't help because in a second I go from disbelief to anger and can't remember what I read.
 
The infestation of Neo Nazis we have been having here has guaranteed one thing: I am damn well going to be there opening night in July to See Captain America beat up on the Nazis...and it will be interesting to see how the Neos react to the film.
 
You also have a few people ,generaly between the ages of 16 and 22, who will embrace just about any outrageous theory if is "edgy" ,"anti establishment" and "daring" enough,who become Holocaust Denial advocates.
Luckily these types almost always grow out of it, or rush away from it when the next "daring and unconventional" theory comes along.
 
dudalb said:
The infestation of Neo Nazis we have been having here has guaranteed one thing: I am damn well going to be there opening night in July to See Captain America beat up on the Nazis...and it will be interesting to see how the Neos react to the film.
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I think you're doing the neo-nasties a favor when you call them an "infestation", as that - in my view anyway - implies there are many of them. I can only count a hand full on this forum, plus a few pom-pom swingers - not really an infestation, although you could argue that one neo-nasty is one too many.

The few we have on these forums have been pretty thoroughly trounced and are not thought of as credible by any regular forumites. Their nonsense needs to be continuously illuminated to ward off any particularly dumb lurkers from accepting the neo-nasty arguments as "twoof", but I think the victory against them has been won, and needs not be won again.
 
Vladd said:
I notice over on the rabbit hole that is the David Icke forum some one started a thread about the number attacks on Jews in the UK being on the increase and everyone who posted thought this was a good thing, someone even listed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a reason why Jews deserve to be attacked, are there still people out there who believe that was real? In fact reading the posts it seems that to the frothing at the mouth brigade every evil in the world is the fault of the JOOOOOS
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I believe you used the wrong word in your first line - the one just prior to "hole".
 
I think it is very important to debate deniers and haters of all sorts. It will most likely not change the views of the hardcore believers in any way, but there is always those in the margins that can be saved. I also think it is important since it gives others ammunition when debating deniers and haters, something that can be difficult if one does not have a special interest in the subject.
 
hgus said:
I think it is very important to debate deniers and haters of all sorts. It will most likely not change the views of the hardcore believers in any way, but there is always those in the margins that can be saved. I also think it is important since it gives others ammunition when debating deniers and haters, something that can be difficult if one does not have a special interest in the subject.
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You have to be careful that in so doing you don't inadvertently give them legitimacy. We should point out their incompetence as scholars, bigotry and their errors to a larger audience but not engage them in debate. Debating them could make it appear as though they have a legitimate point of view and that is not the case.
 
angrysoba said:
Part of the problem is not simply that Holocaust deniers are motivated by anti-semitism but that quite reasonable people may become convinced by a viewpoint that isn't rebutted. If you try to outlaw a particular type of speech or opinion then its proponents will argue that it is only outlawed because nobody has an answer to it and for some suppressed speech becomes attractive because of its suppression.
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There is no danger that quite reasonable people will be convinced by any idea that is as patently absurd as holocaust denial. I think of holocaust denial as akin to Flat Earth Theory but with two major differences: observability and capacity for altering our civilization.

The first is that Flat Earth Theory is easier to accept than holocaust denial because FET is immediately observable. Tell people the Earth is flat and they can go outside and see for themselves that it appears flat. Tell people six million Jews weren't exterminated and they can't go outside and see that six million Jews aren't there. Holocaust deniers can't "prove" their theory by telling people to look at the horizon.

The second difference is that Flat Earth Theory is far more dangerous than holocaust denial. If everybody suddenly believed the holocaust never happened, so what? A few really old people would complain that the younger generation doesn't appreciate what they went through. But, c'mon, old people have been telling young people that 'you kids don't know how hard it was back when yada yada yada' as long as there have been old people and young people. We'd have a few museums that could be shut down and turned in a Starbucks. But there isn't anybody alive today who is going to lose anything if the holocaust didn't happen.

Now if Flat Earth Theory caught on and everybody "knew" that an airplane or a ship traveling in a straight line is going fall off the ice edge, transcontinental commerce would be seriously disrupted.

Yet you never see forum discussions about how to deal with the Flat Earth theorists. Should we ignore Flat Earth Theory? Should we debate them? How do we answer them without giving them legitimacy? It's a complete non-issue. Why would anybody be more concerned about holocaust denial?

Go to the website for the Flat Earth Society and try to make sense of what they're saying. There's no danger of it catching on because it collapses under its own weight. Holocaust denial is in the same category. There's no danger of it catching on unless there's a kernel of truth to it. Which there isn't, so why worry?

If some quirk in your personality makes it impossible for you to ignore crazy people, then answer them in a productive manner. Very few, if any, holocaust scholars support legislation banning holocaust denial because truth doesn't need to be legislated. Fortunately, laws against holocaust denial are rare because even politicians know this. They know that anti-denial legislation or prosecuting deniers under "anti-hate speech" legislation would be necessary only if there was more truth to the denier claims than not.

Scholars know that the best response to the lunatic rantings of holocaust deniers are facts. This is difficult because these same scholars don't want to give the appearance of legitimacy by debating the crazies. Fortunately, they don't need to because the deniers arguments are so patently absurd that they don't need any response.

The worse possible strategy is one that I see endorsed over and over again: ridicule them but don't answer them with the truth. Telling people they're wrong, that you know what it is about them that is wrong, that you know why it is wrong, that you know the truth but you're not going to tell them has never changed anybody's mind. And anybody listening to this type of a debate is going to think that somebody who knows the answer to a question but won't say what it is no different than somebody who doesn't actually have an answer.

If you want to see why holocaust deniers always refuse to debate real historians, watch here where Michael Shermer debates Mark Weber.
 
Dogzilla said:
Scholars know that the best response to the lunatic rantings of holocaust deniers are facts. This is difficult because these same scholars don't want to give the appearance of legitimacy by debating the crazies. Fortunately, they don't need to because the deniers arguments are so patently absurd that they don't need any response.
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Genuine scholars of the Holocaust, the Third Reich and World War Two in general don't debate cranks like Holocaust deniers because they have better things to do.

The only times when they actually go up against Holocaust deniers are in cases in which someone like David Irving tries to suppress free speech by suing people like Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin books for libel even though what Lipstadt said about him was perfectly true.

In rare cases like these real historians such as Richard J Evans have to take years out of their lives to read David Irving's trash and all the documents that Irving claims back up his arguments as Evans did when he demolished Irving once and for all in the High Court meaning that Irving will never have a reputation worth its name ever again.

If some quirk in your personality makes it impossible for you to ignore crazy people, then answer them in a productive manner. Very few, if any, holocaust scholars support legislation banning holocaust denial because truth doesn't need to be legislated. Fortunately, laws against holocaust denial are rare because even politicians know this. They know that anti-denial legislation or prosecuting deniers under "anti-hate speech" legislation would be necessary only if there was more truth to the denier claims than not.
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As my example points out it isn't simply a case of "ignoring crazy people" because some of them, such as David Irving, were vexatious litigants who were responsible for suppressing free speech by suing real historians and real publishers for libel.

So, while I realize that you are hard-wired to see Holocaust deniers as victims and fond of pretending your own views are merely humble differences of opinion (or JAQing off) and resorting to self-pity the record shows that Holocaust deniers are fond of trying to suppress criticism of them by dubious legal means if they have the opportunity.

If everybody suddenly believed the holocaust never happened, so what? A few really old people would complain that the younger generation doesn't appreciate what they went through. But, c'mon, old people have been telling young people that 'you kids don't know how hard it was back when yada yada yada' as long as there have been old people and young people. We'd have a few museums that could be shut down and turned in a Starbucks. But there isn't anybody alive today who is going to lose anything if the holocaust didn't happen.
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This is an obnoxious comment. The upshot of this is that you are pretending there is something cool or trendy about Holocaust denial and the subject of the Holocaust is merely a preserve of old fogies who've built a glut of museums.

No, the truth is that denying the Holocaust is bound up with attempts to rehabilitate the Nazis. It is based, like the rise on Nazism, on propagating a conspiracy theory; the idea that the Jews have manufactured some big lie against the Nazis. If you don't know full well that this is true then you are naiive. But I think I've seen you on denial threads before taking up the cause of Holocaust denial so I know that you are not as naiive as you are pretending to be.
 
angrysoba said:
So, while I realize that you are hard-wired to see Holocaust deniers as victims and fond of pretending your own views are merely humble differences of opinion (or JAQing off) and resorting to self-pity the record shows that Holocaust deniers are fond of trying to suppress criticism of them by dubious legal means if they have the opportunity.

If everybody suddenly believed the holocaust never happened, so what? A few really old people would complain that the younger generation doesn't appreciate what they went through. But, c'mon, old people have been telling young people that 'you kids don't know how hard it was back when yada yada yada' as long as there have been old people and young people. We'd have a few museums that could be shut down and turned in a Starbucks. But there isn't anybody alive today who is going to lose anything if the holocaust didn't happen.
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This is an obnoxious comment. The upshot of this is that you are pretending there is something cool or trendy about Holocaust denial and the subject of the Holocaust is merely a preserve of old fogies who've built a glut of museums.

No, the truth is that denying the Holocaust is bound up with attempts to rehabilitate the Nazis. It is based, like the rise on Nazism, on propagating a conspiracy theory; the idea that the Jews have manufactured some big lie against the Nazis. If you don't know full well that this is true then you are naiive. But I think I've seen you on denial threads before taking up the cause of Holocaust denial so I know that you are not as naiive as you are pretending to be.
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I have Dogzilla on ignore. I did read his post above that you quoted, however, and did review his posting history. Almost every post he's made seems to be about either Nazi German or the Holocaust and he does seem well informed on both topics. I do think he's playing a slippery game, however. Exactly what game is hard to tell but he is clever and disingenuous in the extreme. I can't remember why he is on ignore but on ignore he stays.
 
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Walter Ego said:
I have Dogzilla on ignore. I did read his post above that you quoted, however, and did review his posting history. Almost every post he's made seems to be about either Nazi German or the Holocaust and he does seem well informed on both topics. I do think he's playing a slippery game, however. Exactly what game is hard to tell but he is clever and disingenuous in the extreme. I can't remember why he is on ignore but on ignore he stays.
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I've found, as you probably have too, that a lot of seasoned Holocaust deniers attack the subject at a very oblique angle. They begin usually by agreeing that Holocaust denial is all very silly (they deny they are Holocaust-deniers) and attempt to create the impression of having lots of common ground while probing away at anything they consider an inconsistency by "just-asking-questions" and playing the whole "faux-naif" routine. But they always have some ulterior motive which isn't always obvious at first.

LGR does the same thing which is why I have him on ignore (Saggy, on the other hand, seems to be loud and proud about his anti-semitism and pro-Nazi bias). I should probably put Dogzilla on ignore too.
 
angrysoba said:
I've found, as you probably have too, that a lot of seasoned Holocaust deniers attack the subject at a very oblique angle. They begin usually by agreeing that Holocaust denial is all very silly (they deny they are Holocaust-deniers) and attempt to create the impression of having lots of common ground while probing away at anything they consider an inconsistency by "just-asking-questions" and playing the whole "faux-naif" routine. But they always have some ulterior motive which isn't always obvious at first.

LGR does the same thing which is why I have him on ignore (Saggy, on the other hand, seems to be loud and proud about his anti-semitism and pro-Nazi bias). I should probably put Dogzilla on ignore too.
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LGR made my ignore list on this thread. For the ultimate in the JAQing off and faux-naïf-butter-wouldn't melt-my-mouth approach, check out this thread by LGR.

If I may repeat myself.

I would just ask the other members of this forum to show some restraint before giving these slugs their jollies by replying to them.

Or ... before posting use another nice feature we have, namely, find other posts by... (click on the user name on any post). If all the posts from that user are about The Jews TM or of the "did the Nazis get a bad rap for WW2?" variety consider moving on.
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You might even want to check out any links in their sig, a precaution that the forum members who initially took LGR's troll bait in the thread I linked above failed to do though someone finally caught on. I mean if someone has a Holocaust denial webpage in their sig that they proudly authored, you should know what you're dealing with.
 
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