• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Jesus of Ramathaim

...I think Paul's way of remembering the poor (i.e., telling his congregations that the poor should just starve) is not quite what James and Peter and John had in mind :p

It's hard to know, IMO. We have the burden of the Victorian work ethic, the prosperity theology and so on to work through before we can even dream of approximating the 1st century Middle Eastern provinces of the Roman Empire.

It would have been fascinating to watch Paul 'working' potential donors.
 
The idea of a well to do Jesus makes a lot more sense.
There have been lots of well educated kids taking up a career as revolutionaries.
 
It's hard to know, IMO. We have the burden of the Victorian work ethic, the prosperity theology and so on to work through before we can even dream of approximating the 1st century Middle Eastern provinces of the Roman Empire.

It would have been fascinating to watch Paul 'working' potential donors.

Well, that is true, but still... Paul is supposedly collecting money for the poor in some unspecified churches. Yet to at least one church he's telling not only to not feed the local poor, but to not even associate with the poor.

I'm all for going non-Victorian on that problem, but I don't see how one can square the two in any system. One can't believe that he and his congregation should collect money for the poor, but at the same time the that poor are just lazy and one shouldn't feed them or have anything to do with them. Even before you introduce external context, the two are just at odds with each other. The general ethic of the time may make one or the other more normal, but I don't see how it can make them compatible with each other.

ETA: We can get SOME feel for the ethics at the time, though, by other stuff from the NT. E.g., James (as in the epistle writer, not Jesus's brother) is apparently ticked off that some churches cater only to the rich and exclude the poor, the widows, orphans, etc, and writes his epistle precisely to set them straight about it. He tells them to be nice to those too. Clearly SOMEONE back then was of the opposite of Paul's opinion.
 
Last edited:
Hans: That your scenario is as plausible as any, underpins the fact that, assuming Jesus to be historical, about the only thing we can say about him was that he was a messianic pretender, who had a cynic philosophers view of the world, which also meshed with a view that was apocalyptic.

Or at least that other people depicted him as such. (Remember, we have nothing even allegedly written by Jesus.)
 
The idea of a well to do Jesus makes a lot more sense.
There have been lots of well educated kids taking up a career as revolutionaries.

He'd be following more or less in the footsteps of the Buddha!
 
Well, that is true, but still... Paul is supposedly collecting money for the poor in some unspecified churches. Yet to at least one church he's telling not only to not feed the local poor, but to not even associate with the poor.

I'm all for going non-Victorian on that problem, but I don't see how one can square the two in any system. One can't believe that he and his congregation should collect money for the poor, but at the same time the that poor are just lazy and one shouldn't feed them or have anything to do with them. Even before you introduce external context, the two are just at odds with each other. The general ethic of the time may make one or the other more normal, but I don't see how it can make them compatible with each other.

ETA: We can get SOME feel for the ethics at the time, though, by other stuff from the NT. E.g., James (as in the epistle writer, not Jesus's brother) is apparently ticked off that some churches cater only to the rich and exclude the poor, the widows, orphans, etc, and writes his epistle precisely to set them straight about it. He tells them to be nice to those too. Clearly SOMEONE back then was of the opposite of Paul's opinion.


Of course you're right, Hans.
I simply take it as granted Paul was a conman/snake-oil salesman/grifter.
Obviously I'm open to evidence to the contrary!
But with my hand firmly on my billfold ;)
 
Of course you're right, Hans.
I simply take it as granted Paul was a conman/snake-oil salesman/grifter.
Obviously I'm open to evidence to the contrary!
But with my hand firmly on my billfold ;)

Jesus is the example for the ordinary Christians, Paul is the example for preachers*.

* con men.
 
tsig, I'm going to keep that line!

What I'm trying to figure out is if there's a way to tell, at this point, what charges were actually originally brought up against Paul in Jerusalem.
He went there to give some charity to the poor, allegedly (and oddly), and went to the Temple and pissed off a bunch of people by doing that...with whatever it was that he did there.
 
Is it possible that Paul was using "The Poor" as a title of a specific group in Jerusalem and that the nuance has been lost in subsequent copying? Like saying we are taking up a collection for "The Smith Family" (http://www.thesmithfamily.com.au/site/page.cfm) and by the way, stop letting those lazy bastards Joeseph Smith and his folks take food from the table if they refuse to help provide...
 
So you are essentially asking if he was referring to the Ebionites (the poor ones).

Is this correct?
 
So you are essentially asking if he was referring to the Ebionites (the poor ones).

Is this correct?

I'm wondering if that is possible. I don't know enough about the original language to say.

But I do know there is a passage in the Dead Sea Scrolls where they refer to themselves as "The Poor". There is another passage of the DSS that tells members of the Community that they should not take anything from Gentiles, because they are unclean, well except for their money. Taking money from unclean Gentiles was perfectly acceptible to them.

As far as I know, only Eisenman is pushing this particular interpretation, so I don't know how plausible it is.
 
It's very tenuous to make that kind of link.
The only way that I can think of to establish the probability of that idea would be to compare all of Paul's citations of the poor and compare them; specifically, comparing the poor in citations such as Galatians (cited above by Hans) against something like 2 Corinthians 6:10 and see if there's grammatical differences in the treatment of the text that is being lost in the English translation.

I'm down for that, and have the resources for that investigation, so I'll get back with you on that.
 
That's great, JaysonR.
It'll be interesting to see what you come up with.
 
It's very tenuous to make that kind of link.
The only way that I can think of to establish the probability of that idea would be to compare all of Paul's citations of the poor and compare them; specifically, comparing the poor in citations such as Galatians (cited above by Hans) against something like 2 Corinthians 6:10 and see if there's grammatical differences in the treatment of the text that is being lost in the English translation.

I'm down for that, and have the resources for that investigation, so I'll get back with you on that.

Wow. Thanks. I know this is only tangential to the main thread, but I hope it isn't too far OT.
 
OK...

So, the baseline that we'll use is 2 Corinthians 6:10 because here it is just in a list of of adjectives, and not a specific use, which should indicate how it is treated as a general adjective in Paul's use.

Citing the English of the NIV (btw, I hate the NIV; it's full of errors, but here it suffices for just quick summary of context well enough to everyone here):
sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

(keep in mind; punctuation does not exist in the Greek, so all of that is interpretation of the translation)

The word for "poor" here is:
πτωχοὶ

It's root is from πτώσσω, meaning "begger"; essentially.
πτωχοὶ would be better represented in English, not as "poor", but "those who are forced into begging", and includes an implication of not only money, but also a loss of social power as well.

In this instance, the conjugation of the adjective is: nominative plural masculine
This conjugation is the conjugation consistent with the grammar of the rest of this citation (all other verbs and adjectives are in the NPM form), except for πολλοὺς, which is APM (accusative plural masculine), which is sensible as it is an adjective of the following direct object (rich, describing how rich the object, rich, are).

So now let's flip to Galatians 2:10:
NIV survey saaays:
All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

The word for poor here is:
πτωχῶν

Which is the same word and the same meaning.
The difference here is the conjugation of the adjective, which is genitive plural masculine.

Genitive is ownership.
For example, "the hate of John".
If I meant, "John's hate", then "hate" would be in the genitive.
Otherwise, I would be stating that the hate is a condition held by some group or person regarding John.

Also of note here is the article being used prior to πτωχῶν, "τῶν".
"The poor" (loosely translating)

This is often used when being specific, for instance; this is how "The Divine" (often rendered in English as "The One God", or something similar) is most often rendered in the Greek.

So it is an adjective that defines a sort of noun, though not grammatically. By inference, it refers to a specific group that is poor, as opposed to the general description of those who are poor.

This is leading the possibility that this may indeed be a specific group that is being discussed, as opposed to a general state of poor people being addressed.

A single comparison is not enough since these are at odds from each other, so we'll look at another entry.


The next best entry for the possibility of a specific poor group is in Acts 24:17.
NIV vomits to us:
“After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings.

Oh NIV, you terrible translation you.
"Poor" isn't even in this line in the Greek.
They translate there to be "poor" here from the word they render as "gifts": ἐλεημοσύνας

This is a word for mercy, pity, acts of charity, especially (obviously) when regarding those in need of help.

Here, this word is a noun in the accusative plural feminine.
The feminine is because the gift is received by the direct object.
The direct object here is ἔθνος.
A word for "a people" (essentially); typically implying a racial/national summary.
Here, this word is a noun (obviously) in the accusative singular neuter (neuter because it is all inclusive and not either under or over in grammatical dominance/submission).


As such, (now that I've taken the time to examine it more closely than just reading the English) this entry actually removes my previous question about why bring gifts to the poor here.
There wasn't any poor here being given to.
That concept is being interpreted by the translators based on the possible implication of ἔθνος.

Instead, what it being stated here is that he went to Jerusalem to give offerings to his nation...which would most likely be done at the Temple where he is shown to go and tick someone off for some (as of yet) unknown reason.


So this entry doesn't help too much because it's only a poorly made English translation that inserts the word, "poor", into the line, when it should instead be a line talking about him doing something every Jew "should" do: take offerings to the Temple (at least once in their life; similar to the Islamic practice of Mecca).


So, onward...
The next best entry is Romans 15:26.
NIV, what terrible rendition do you have for us this time?
For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem.

YAY! Finally a proper entry!
OK, the word here is the same as the first two entries, but follows Galatians pattern:

πτωχοὺς
This is in the accusative plural masculine, which makes sense, since the following phrase is τῶν ἁγίων (the holy...better rendered as sacred or blameless "holy" is an abstract and Hebrew culture didn't think in abstract; everything related to a direct action; in this case, essentially, "those without fault").

Notice that τῶν article?
It exists prior to πτωχοὺς here as well, just like Galatians.

"τοὺς πτωχοὺς τῶν ἁγίων τῶν ἐν Ἰερουσαλήμ. "
loosely, 'those poor of the blameless in the Jerusalem'


So far Galatians and Romans appears to be setting this particular poor up for being a specific group, and not just a general state of poverty; especially Romans, where it is specifically outlined as the 'holy poor' (very loosely translating the concept into English).


So I need at least two more comparisons to be satisfied that I can make a conclusion on this.
Let's see...

2 Corinthians 9:9
NIV, what does your drunk self say?
As it is written:

“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
their righteousness endures forever.”
Nice spacing choice NIV. :rolleyes:

OK, well...this is an entirely different word, meaning basically "poor by starvation"...conceptually, and its root means to work or toil just to sustain one's self.

πένησιν is in the dative plural masculine...and is the only use of this word anywhere in the NT.
Oh, good; that's helpful....:boggled:

Well, this is a crap comparison on the face of it...thanks again NIV for doing a great job at terrible translations.

BTW, this isn't a good representation, because this is more closely related to a state of being hungry for sustenance, and not related to a state of lacking a state of well-doing; which fits the context of the verse.

NEEEEXT!

Acts 10:4 (rogerdodger!)
NIV? You joker you, what do you say?
Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.

The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.

Well, screw it...this one is bad as well.
There's no "poor" here; it's another transnational license NIV took of ἐλεημοσύνας before, but this time it's ἐλεημοσύναι, which is the same word for acts of charity as before...*sigh*.

NEEEEXT!

Acts 9:36
NIV...come on you bastard, give me something I can work with!
In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (in Greek her name is Dorcas); she was always doing good and helping the poor.

Survey saaays?
Good job screwing it up again NIV!
Same as the previous verse...there's no "poor" word here; they are inferring the meaning from the same "mercy/charity/et. al." word used here (ἐλεημοσυνῶν).

And that appears to round up any Pauline citations of "poor".



I can't draw from Luke because I can't just assume that Acts and Luke are actually the same author, so I can't do that.



Conclusions:
Well, it's far less conclusive than I would appreciate (pretty crappy actually), but there's enough possibility between Romans and Galatians compared to 2 Corinthians 6:10 that we can note that there does appear to be a special value placed on the poor listed in Romans and Galatians; clearly in Romans with "holy" being attributed to them, meanwhile the Corinthian citation lacks an article "the/those", and doesn't offer any special note of poor as sacred or holy.


In my opinion, I cannot rule out that Paul is shuffling goods around for a specific poverty sect, and Paul is often found in his letters to claim that giving up all belongings and becoming rich in spirit is his preference (at least...in writing; his actions indicate otherwise).


If this is the case, we don't know if it's specifically the Ebionites, or another similarly self labeling "poor" group (the Ebionites didn't call themselves, "Ebionites", but instead were referred to as the "poor ones").

This sympathizes with my general stance; that there was a fashion that trended out of the followings of showing that you were poor and calling yourself poor overtly as a rather large portion of the very early believer groups (something that mostly died off over time...because...well...people don't want to be poor; being poor sucks...right Paul? Right. ;) )


So I would say that the hypothesis can be drafted that Paul is talking about POSSIBLY Ebionites, but they may not be...they may be just another sect of "Poor".

If it weren't for all the focus on "Christ", I'm betting the name for Christianity (had the early followings had their way) would have instead been some derivative of "Impoverished".
 
Last edited:
Actually, all of that has given me a different insight entirely, and I think I can now answer why Paul was arrested in Jerusalem at the Temple.

James and Paul did not get along.
I mentioned before that James essentially tells Paul to piss off and do whatever he wants with the Gentiles after an exhaustive argument that clearly was aggravating James.

I think it was in this thread, but I can't recall, but I've often held the opinion that I wouldn't be shocked to find out that James would take the opportunity to get Paul removed from the equation should things just "happen to occur" (work accident ;) ).

Well, remember Paul's arrival to Jerusalem where he meets up with James in Acts 21?
Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

This is the James group telling Paul all of this.
They are telling Paul that he is in threat of being in trouble with the Jews for not obeying the Law and telling others to not obey the Law, and to take these new converts to the Temple for ritual bathing at the Temple...at the Temple...non-Jews...at the Temple, in the name of Jesus, a convicted heretic.

And further, they write to the Gentiles and tell them the opposite of what Paul was telling them to do...usurped much there Paul?

But wait...it's better; they completely set him up.
Look what happens next.


26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.


27 When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, 28 shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.”

Why were there Asia Minor Jews conveniently at the Temple to act as direct witnesses that remove "hearsay" from being an obstacle (second hand charges were not accepted in Hebrew Law), and why did James' elders tell Paul to take Gentiles into the Temple when we know that James didn't like affiliating with Gentiles?

Now, remember that line in Galatians to remember THE poor, and the Romans entry of "holy poor"?
We know that James was hard core traditionalist, and anal about sticking to the rules.
Jesus constantly talked about giving up possessions, and James is his brother, and reminds Paul to remember THE poor when Paul is dismissed to go away from Jerusalem's area and extended regions and teach to Gentiles, and when not in Jerusalem, Paul refers to collecting for the holy poor of Jerusalem; the same title he refers to for James' sect as a 'Church of Jerusalem' (Acts 8).

Also, Remember this?
Acts 20:16
Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost.

So...he's compelled to hurry to Jerusalem, and pressured to skip Asia Minor...where the Jews come from that charge him...that's convenient.

This really makes it, to me, rather clear.
The "Poor" are James' group, who prefer living strictly by the Law and electing to be poor in their perception of obedience to Jesus' teachings.

They were not sympathetic to Gentiles, could not get Paul to stop wanting to teach to Gentiles, nor stop him from teaching Gentiles and Gentile Jews to not live by the Law, so they tell Paul to go ahead and teach his ways to the Gentiles; go on and teach them to not adhere to the Law.
Then they invite him to come back down to offer homage to the Church in Jerusalem, the holy poor, and immediately upon showing up they are very happy and schmoozing up to Paul, praising their god for his arrival...really? Praising a guy whom you all are tired of...quite clearly?
Then they tell him that there's a band of Jews ready to charge him for teaching people to not obey the Law...something James already told him to piss off and do as he wants to...entrapment anyone?

Then he's told to take these new convert followers in James' fold, who may very well have been Jewish looking Gentiles that Paul thought were Gentile Jews like himself, and partake in ritual purification rights in the holy baths at the Temple...um...

Then the Asia Minor Jews pop up conveniently and charge him for bringing these people into the Temple, and further charge him with exactly what James' elders warned him about and gave him these Gentiles to participate with to stave off the charges.

A Jesus heretic follower takes Gentiles into the Temple and baths in the ritual baths for Law abiding Hebrews, not Jesus followers, and gets charged by Asia Minor Jews Paul just happened to skip past (so he couldn't be warned by any Pauline sympathizers) who can directly stand as first-hand witnesses to his crimes?
And just in case those charges don't stick; he's given those Gentile converts to take into the Temple...;)


Well played James...well played.
 
Last edited:
Even believing Acts (which, as I've said before, most scholars take as a novel), I'm not sure they're trying to set up Paul.

Paul tells us in Galatians that he agreed with James and Peter and John and the gang that they get exclusive rights to preach to the Jews, while Paul is allowed to preach to the gentiles.

And I think at least they largely kept their part of the bargain. The only instance where Peter is accused of "making the gentiles Judaize" is in Galatians 2:14 when he stops eating with the Gentiles, when some "some [men] from James" drop by (Gal 2:12). I don't think it's meant that Peter was actively telling gentiles to convert, but basically Paul is saying, "oh, so suddenly you won't eat with them unless they follow the Jewish purity customs."

Incidentally that's the same reason I believe the Jewish Jesus followers just imploded. The Jews didn't convert, and especially the destruction of the temple would make anyone think twice about the idea that the Messiah had already come and saved them. Rabinical Judaism emerged as THE religion of the Jews after that.

Incidentally they did have some debates in the beginning of our era about whether the messiah had already come. And, who knows, people like James and Peter may have been involved. But the Jews pretty much decided that no, he didn't.

At any rate, my take is that Peter didn't go and found churches among gentiles competing with Paul, but mostly stuck to his end of the bargain. I mean, he probably would have accepted people converting to Judaism, but that's about it.

And, to return to Paul, considering that it was just a small group travelling around (him, Timothy, Barnabas seem to be the main group and they seem to travel together most of the time), I doubt that his church would have resisted that well if there were 500+ people actively telling them that Paul is wrong. I mean, for the first decade or so, he probably didn't have that many followers total. We know at least some of his "churches" fit in someone's living room around a table.

And realistically Jews back then, just like Jews now, wouldn't have cared that gentiles don't follow the Law. There's no reason for James to try to trap Paul into telling gentiles to not follow the Law, because gentiles already didn't anyway.

What Paul is accused of in Acts is that he told Jews to stop following the Law. Which, honestly, he tells us himself in Galatians 2. That's what he's blasting Peter about.

So I don't see it as some elaborate plot to trap Paul, but it's that Paul simply broke his end of the bargain and in doing so, broke the Law. James may or may not have had something to do with those Jews from Asia Minor being in the temple at the right moment. Paul had already pissed off Jews all over the place, all around the Mediterranean, so it may also happen by sheer chance. But even if James wants Paul taken out of the picture at that point, I don't think that when he gave Paul his approval to preach to the gentiles a decade earlier, it was to trap him.
 
That said, about the Poor.

The thing is, poverty was taken as a title by more than one group or person. The term was religiously loaded, so to speak.

Even the Christians occasionally called themselves the poor. Quite commonly, actually. E.g., Minucius Felix writes, "That we are called the poor is not our disgrace, but our glory." So, yeah, Christians too were called "the poor" at some point.

It's at least possible that James's group called themselves poor too.

On the other hand, I'm not sure Paul collected only for them. IIRC he does mention collecting for some poor churches other than that in Jerusalem. And he might actually be calling all Christians that, and since you mention πτωχοὶ, let's look at πτωχεία (ptocheia=poverty, beggary) in 2 Corinthians 8:2:

2. In the midst of a very severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity.

3. For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own,

4. they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the Lord’s people.

5. And they exceeded our expectations: They gave themselves first of all to the Lord, and then by the will of God also to us.
​

Seems to me like Paul either is using "ptocheia" as some kind of euphemism for for Christian piety, or he really means it to mean poverty or lack of power.

But then again, on the same page we have the derivative word ἐπτώχευσεν (eptōcheusen) in 8:9, and again the same "ptōcheia":

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.​

It seems to me like while it is a somewhat metaphorical usage, he might actually mean "poverty". It makes little sense to say that Jesus Christ became a Christian, and it would make it a nonsense to contrast it to "rich" (πλούσιος) in that verse if it were just a title for Christians.

(ETA: also, I just can't get enough of harping on Paul's using other people money. Notice how the Macedonians gave to God, but at the end of verse 5 Paul sneaks in, "by the will of God also to us." He's like a reverse Robin Hood, taking the money of those he just described as being in extreme poverty, and, by the will of God, using them himself.)
 
Last edited:
Even believing Acts (which, as I've said before, most scholars take as a novel), I'm not sure they're trying to set up Paul.

Paul tells us in Galatians that he agreed with James and Peter and John and the gang that they get exclusive rights to preach to the Jews, while Paul is allowed to preach to the gentiles. ...

If I'm understanding this situation correctly, it has a parallel in the divvying up of the New World between Portugal and Spain as set forth in the Treaty of Tordesillas.
I've just finished rereading Galatians (KJV), rather a creepy document and not exactly trust-inspiring by any means, IMO.



That was most instructive and enjoyable.
Thanks for providing some insights into what was meant by 'the poor'.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom