Jesus In China

[DOC]

It looks like Christianity is growing fast in China. There will be a Frontline Report tonight Tuesday June 24, at 9 p.m. on PBS entitled Jesus in China. Unfortunately, I might have to miss it, so I need all of you to fill me in on it. In the ad, it says the Chinese ruling party, officially atheist, is struggling to control it.

Didn't the Roman Empire try to do the same thing 2000 years ago.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/china_705/

 

[Mashuna]

No, the Romans were never officially atheist.

 

[Wolfman]

It looks like Christianity is growing fast in China. There will be a Frontline Report tonight Tuesday June 24, at 9 p.m. on PBS entitled Jesus in China. Unfortunately, I might have to miss it, so I need all of you to fill me in on it. In the ad, it says the Chinese ruling party, officially atheist, is struggling to control it.

The Roman Empire tried to do the same thing 2000 years ago.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/china_705/

This is true...as far as it goes. As is par for the course, Christians who are flogging this story as 'proof' of something (the superiority of Christianity, the victory of Christianity over atheism, etc.) are ignoring the larger story.

Here's the bigger picture.

Prior to 1949 (when the Communists took over), the Chinese were deeply religious, and had moral/ethical values derived from that source (primarily Buddhist/Daoist, but some Christians, Muslims, etc.). Then the Communists took over, and instituted an atheist regime that A) sought to eradicate religion, and B) teach morals/ethics based on Communist doctrine. They achieved some success in this regard...subsequent generations had far fewer religious adherents, and for awhile, Communist ideology was quite popular.

But, as the inherent problems in Communism became more apparent, people lost faith in Communism...but being mostly atheists, they were left without any inherent moral/ethical system to fall back on. In modern China, this is one of the most important debates/issues...what to base their moral/ethical values on?

Humanism (in my opinion) is an excellent alternative (although obviously DOC will disagree with me); an atheist system that nevertheless provides a cohesive and logical moral/ethical structure and belief system. However, at present, almost no Chinese have ever heard of Humanism (and myself and a few Chinese are working on changing that).

In regards to other religions...in the absence of an atheist alternative, many Chinese (particularly in the countryside) are returning to religion as a source for moral/ethical values. So yes, it is true, many Chinese are becoming Christian. Many Chinese are also becoming Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Buddhist, Ba'hai...you name it, they're going for it. There are even UFO cults springing up, and other more bizarre nonsense.

The thing is, the rate of Christianity's growth is no greater than that of any other religion (and is slower than the growth of both Buddhism and Mormonism)...so serves as 'proof' of nothing, really, in my opinion, other than the fact that people will believe anything.

 

[DOC]

No, the Romans were never officially atheist.

But they did try to control Christianity.

 

[Ocelot]

 

[Ocelot]

But they did try to control Christianity.

Indeed, much of what we've inherrited as the supposed word of God owes more to 2nd and 3rd Century Roman politics than any directly revealed knowledge.

I wonder if in 2000 years time there will be brand of Christianity that owes more to 21st century Chinese cultural and political influence than all those love thy neighbour and good samaritan messages with which I heartlily agree.

 

[DOC]

This is true...as far as it goes. As is par for the course, Christians who are flogging this story as 'proof' of something (the superiority of Christianity, the victory of Christianity over atheism, etc.) are ignoring the larger story.

Here's the bigger picture.

Prior to 1949 (when the Communists took over), the Chinese were deeply religious, and had moral/ethical values derived from that source (primarily Buddhist/Daoist, but some Christians, Muslims, etc.). Then the Communists took over, and instituted an atheist regime that A) sought to eradicate religion and B) teach morals/ethics based on Communist doctrine. They achieved some success in this regard...subsequent generations had far fewer religious adherents, and for awhile, Communist ideology was quite popular.

But, as the inherent problems in Communism became more apparent, people lost faith in Communism...but being mostly atheists, they were left without any inherent moral/ethical system to fall back on...

Yes, and the Russian Communists tried to eradicate religion too when they took over. Yet, there have been several people in these threads say communism and atheism are not related for some reason.

 

[wahrheit]

Nice job with bolding parts of Wolfman's post, DOC.

But they did try to control Christianity.

In fact, the Roman Empire did try to control just about everything, not only Christian sects.

 

[Wolfman]

Yes, and the Russian Communists tried to eradicate religion too when they took over. Yet, there have been several people in these threads say communism and atheism are not related for some reason.

They're not...no moreso than the abuses of Muslims are related to Christianity.

Muslims are theists; and so are Christians. But that doesn't mean that I can logically conclude that, since both groups are theists, therefore the actions of one group are automatically connected to the other group.

There are many different kinds of atheists, and atheist philosophies...Communism is one. Humanism is another. And there are tons of other ones out there (even atheist religions, such as Raelians).

Christianity and Islam are both "related" to theism; yet what one particular group does cannot be used to make conclusions about all theists, or about theism in general. Communism is "related" to atheism...yet, by the same token, cannot be used to make conclusions about all atheists, or atheism in general.

 

[joobz]

It's not really suprising to think that China would adopt a new moral code during thier economic growth. More importantly, the people were told for generations that thier individual wants/needs were unimportant and that only the good of the state mattered.

Well, obviously this viewpoint doesn't work with capitalism and people are being faced with the cognitive disconnect between what they were taught and what they see as reality. So these people will gravitate to other moral codes which will help bridge this cognitive gap.

Christianity makes sense, because it has, itself, been bridging that gap for centuries. IT started out with esentially communist ideals. These ideals were then used to give power to monarchies and establish a caste system. Then christianity was used to justify the concept of natural rights to now the christian combined view of individual worth and self-importance with the sense of needing to help your fellow-man.

So,really it makes sense for christian faith to fill the void that exists.

 

[Wolfman]

So,really it makes sense for christian faith to fill the void that exists.

...no moreso than many other belief systems (and, as noted above, some other 'faiths' are actually doing better than Christianity). I have no problem with people pointing out the spread of religion in China; what I have problems with is selectively mining the information to try to make an argument that one particular religion is spreading because of some inherent superiority within that religion.

"Chinese people are rapidly turning to various religious beliefs" = truth

"Chinese people are rapidly turning to Christianity" = lie by omission, leaving out a large and significant part of the story

 

[Wheezebucket]

And these communist parties we're talking about aren't exactly known for their overflowing rationality or civil discourse. Nobody ever started a war or slaughtered a group of people because they were being too reasonable. Communism isn't based on atheism, that's just one aspect of it, and when you replace a deity with a deity-like state head, that's just swapping one sky daddy for another.

The bottom line is, a lot of people in China are running to Christianity because Christians are working very hard to woo the uneducated masses who are looking for something. A strategy they're very practiced at. It's a numbers game, like whack-a-convert. But I dunno, I lived in China a long time, I can't see Christianity getting the same kind of long term legs over there that it has in America.

 

[Darth Rotor]

And these communist parties we're talking about aren't exactly known for their overflowing rationality or civil discourse. Nobody ever started a war or slaughtered a group of people because they were being too reasonable. Communism isn't based on atheism, that's just one aspect of it, and when you replace a deity with a deity-like state head, that's just swapping one sky daddy for another.

Makes sense.

The bottom line is, a lot of people in China are running to Christianity because Christians are working very hard to woo the uneducated masses who are looking for something. A strategy they're very practiced at. It's a numbers game, like whack-a-convert. But I dunno, I lived in China a long time, I can't see Christianity getting the same kind of long term legs over there that it has in America.

Christianity in China has its own flavor, yet the Catholics there brought the same internal bickering with them that was seen in Europe for centuries. Angels on the head of a pin. A few months back, Atlantic (ETA: OK, now I am not sure where I read it, can't find it on the web. ) had a great article on the two different, and small, core groups of Chinese Catholics: the ones who stayed underground, the ones that were led by a priest who had to try and get along with the State (tricky job, that). Also addressed was the diplomatic dance the various pope's have tripped through in ther relations with both the Chinese government over the decades, and the two clashing Roman Catholic cliques.

Here's a Q & A, http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200706u/catholic-china/3 on the topic, but it isn't the droid article I am looking for.

Will ETA when I find it.

ETA: Must be a print mag that is no longer in the quality time reading basket. Sorry for not digging up the original ref.

DR

 

[Bikewer]

Seems to me that China would be ripe pickings for the so-called "prosperity" movement in Christianity; it appears to be playing well in poor South American countries.

 

[joobz]

...no moreso than many other belief systems (and, as noted above, some other 'faiths' are actually doing better than Christianity). I have no problem with people pointing out the spread of religion in China; what I have problems with is selectively mining the information to try to make an argument that one particular religion is spreading because of some inherent superiority within that religion.

"Chinese people are rapidly turning to various religious beliefs" = truth

"Chinese people are rapidly turning to Christianity" = lie by omission, leaving out a large and significant part of the story

I was taking DOC's post at face value and the story he linked to focused only on christian churches. Do you have a source for the statistics on religious growth in China?


I guess my main point is the age old, So what?

If Chinese people being atheist didn't "prove" athiesm
why would Chinese people being christian "prove" christianity?
If Chinese people being buddhist didn't "prove" buddhism, why would Chinese people being christian "prove" christianity?

Note to DOC: I say "prove" but feel free to insert
"support"
"provide evidence of the validity of"
"indicates it as the one true philosphy/faith..."

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Not to inflate the post count which DOC will doubtlessly cite months from now, long after his "reason" for starting this thread had been thuroghly eviscerated, but, subbing... just to see where it goes.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Damn you, DOC, I was gonna post a thread on that report!


It'll indeed be an interesting documentary. PBS Frontline's done some interesting docs on the PRC already, and I expect quality work from them this time around, too.

Yes, and the Russian Communists tried to eradicate religion too when they took over. Yet, there have been several people in these threads say communism and atheism are not related for some reason.

As we have explained to you time and time again, DOC, Communism and atheism are inherently related and there have been Communist-style societies which were ruled and populated by Christians.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Seems to me that China would be ripe pickings for the so-called "prosperity" movement in Christianity; it appears to be playing well in poor South American countries.

Well, the thing is, Chinese are generally very pragmatic. So when they "turn to religion", they tend to do it in a practical way, that is, they adopt what is useful and generally ignore the rest. For instance, the Chinese (and Japanese, BTW) gleefully adopt Christmas as a nice opportunity for another celebration, but don't give a hoot about Jebus.

So, while we do see them 'flock' to religions, don't expect them to change their basic philosophy much. Just as they really didn't during the communist epoch; basically, chairman Mao just took the place of the Emperor.

Hans

 

[grayman]

Well, the thing is, Chinese are generally very pragmatic. So when they "turn to religion", they tend to do it in a practical way, that is, they adopt what is useful and generally ignore the rest. ...

DOC, have you ever heard of Rice Christians?

 

[Ateius]

As we have explained to you time and time again, DOC, Communism and atheism are inherently related and there have been Communist-style societies which were ruled and populated by Christians.

I think you're missing a "not" in there somewhere.