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JEROME - Life and Linear Time

Doesn't make the solutions correct.


Is this the Zeuzzz interpretation of perfectly valid. Like your claims that the Sun might not be powered by fusion in the core?


So if we know this do you know not think its been dismissed as a legit cause of redshift? Or are you implying the majority of cosmologists are incompetent?


Are you suggesting that astronomers/cosmologists don't consider dust ever?


Ah, the Perfect Cosmological Principle. Sigh.


The Big Bang idea came from Hubble's observation of the redshift distance relation.


Its a bad thing that the BB mathematical formulas work?


That would be the old "scientists have been wrong before so must be wrong now" argument.


Says someone trying to tell us about how great the perfect cosmological principle is.


I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you be more explicit? Were you not touting the greatness of quasi steady state theory recently (I may be wrong)? If so then you are an unbelievably big hippocrite.


What like BB theory predicted the CMBR? The CMBR that you're trying to explain away by suggesting cosmologists don't consider dust? Hippocrite.


So you're using arguments from an authority on the side you're arguing against now?


Utter nonesense. I bet a large fraction of BB proponents are atheists.


We have independent estimates suggesting the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago.


You'd better go to the local farm to top up on that straw you're using to create this big man.


And evolution is just a theory :rolleyes: .


:D

This kind of reasoning is sometimes disparigingly referred to as "word salad", on the face of it, it looks like a pretty extensive responce, but it contains no meat, scientifically speaking.

There is not one comment there that I can respond to directly with any science. Its a host of generalizations and personal opinions, which you are welcome to vent here, but it really does nothing to progress the topic at hand.

Example:

"We have independent estimates suggesting the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago."

= opinion.

Productive statement:

"We have independent estimates suggesting the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago, which is clearly demonstrated by ............ [enter scientific reason here]"

Example:

"And evolution is just a theory"

= opinion

Productive statement:

"And evolution is just a theory, because [enter person here] has observed [enter object here]"

Example:

"What like BB theory predicted the CMBR?"

Productive statement:

"What like BB theory predicted the CMBR. The prediction was [enter prediction] Which was confirmed [enter confirmation here]"

Example:

"Like your claims that the Sun might not be powered by fusion in the core?"

Productive statement:

"Like your claims that the Sun might not be powered by fusion in the core? Which we know not to be true because .........."



If you did that, then I would be able to respond directly to your claims, but as it stands, it just comes across as a rather large plate of word salad.
 
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DeiRenDopa said:
My goodness, a new field of science!

Would you be kind enough to tell readers of this thread just what journals meet your standards, as being a "plasma astrophysics journal"?
Amazing. I think you are suffering from a quite severe case of inattentional blindness DRD, as you seem incapable of seeing my posts.
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No need to be so amazed, the explanation is extremely simple and straight-forward (stay tuned, and read carefully now).
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I would certainly count these as plasma astrophysics journals, and since the very definition of plasma cosmolgy is the study of the plasma universe, it falls under that bracket.
[IEEE references snipped]

Or any other similar plasma astrophysics journal would be likely candidate.

[rest of post snipped; it contains the names of no 'plasma astrophysics journals']
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Yep, I must now fall upon my sword ... I did not explicitly exclude the one (and only) journal you had already referenced, and I did not take care to quote the word 'other' ... (I added bolding).

So, other than IEEE journal(s), would you be kind enough to tell readers of this thread just what journals meet your standards, as being a "plasma astrophysics journal"?
 
:D

This kind of reasoning is sometimes disparigingly referred to as "word salad", on the face of it, it looks like a pretty extensive responce, but it contains no meat, scientifically speaking.

There is not one comment there that I can respond to directly with any science. Its a host of generalizations and personal opinions, which you are welcome to vent here, but it really does nothing to progress the topic at hand.

Example:

"We have independent estimates suggesting the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago."

= opinion.

Productive statement:

"We have independent estimates suggesting the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago, which is clearly demonstrated by ............ [enter scientific reason here]"

Example:

"And evolution is just a theory"

= opinion

Productive statement:

"And evolution is just a theory, because [enter person here] has observed [enter object here]"

Example:

"What like BB theory predicted the CMBR?"

Productive statement:

"What like BB theory predicted the CMBR. The prediction was [enter prediction] Which was confirmed [enter confirmation here]"

Example:

"Like your claims that the Sun might not be powered by fusion in the core?"

Productive statement:

"Like your claims that the Sun might not be powered by fusion in the core? Which we know not to be true because .........."



If you did that, then I would be able to respond directly to your claims, but as it stands, it just comes across as a rather large plate of word salad.
Huh?

Didn't you say, two posts ago?
Anyways, I'm all done for the day. Good night.
Anyhoo ....

Would you be kind enough to explain how the post of yours which Tubbythin is quoting from meets your standards of 'science' (and is not 'word salad')?

Anyhoo2 ...

I seem to have missed this: in which of the material you cited is there a quantitative explanation, based on PC (including references to the landmark texts and/or papers), of the observed relative abundances of the elements? Or even a subset of them, say H, He, C, O, and Fe?

I particularly want to read such a source, starting with how its description of an infinite universe matches what you posted earlier in this thread.
 
This kind of reasoning is sometimes disparigingly referred to as "word salad", on the face of it, it looks like a pretty extensive responce, but it contains no meat, scientifically speaking.

This is coming from the person who just wrote...
In science we work from observation; from empirical observation that starts in the here and now, and works backwards and outwards. The Big Bang works from mathematical formulas, deductions, that start from the beginning of the universe, and try to predict the future. This is the same mathematical deductive approach that lead to the Ptolemaic universe. What these theories have in common is that they try to derive what the universe should be, based on what perfect principles we can develop; what god should have made the universe to look like, and then try to fit the universe into this perfect framework. However, what has happened over the years, as observations have come up that dont agree with the predictions of the Big Bang theory, the theory adds an extra assumption, that is not tested or resting on conventional known physics, and simply assumes that this must be true. The problem with that is it develops myth; not science. It develops a religious faith in which nothing in the real observable world can contradict the theory. The trouble with this is it undermines the entire scientific enterprise, the reason science has been valuable to humans is because it allows us to predict nature in such a way that we can utilize nature in a predictable and useful fashion, with whatever modern technology is available. To abandon this approach, that has served us so well, and instead to go to the idea that we can deduce from perfect mathematical principles what the universe must be, to "read the mind of God" as Stephen Hawkins says, is to abandon the scientific method.


The reason many people think that the Big Bang is so popular today is that it has a deep connection to the biblical story of creation; for most people it satisfies a deep inherent feeling that there should be a beginning, a now, and an end. Instead of saying that the universe was created out of nothing by God 4000, or 10,000 years ago, they now simply say to us it was created 10 billion years, or 20 billion years ago. This type of cosmology can best be described as metaphysics and philosophy combined to study the totality of space and time, and this approach from the very outset has serious problems from a strictly scientific perspective.


In what is perhaps a sign that popular science journals are becoming more open to talking about the problems of conventional cosmology, American Scientist has published in its September-October issue a critique of the Big Bang by Dr. Michael Disney. The article, forthrightly titled ”Modern Cosmology, Science or Folk-tale” demonstrates that at all points in its history the Big Bang model has had more independent adjustable parameters than observable data points, giving it almost no powers of prediction, the key characteristic of any scientific theory.


The universe is infinite; we can not possibly know the *true origin* of the universe accurately with our current knowledge, and we may never know. That is the big difference between Plasma Cosmology and the Big Bang, that claims to be closing in on the final answer.




There is not one comment there that I can respond to directly with any science. Its a host of generalizations and personal opinions, which you are welcome to vent here, but it really does nothing to progress the topic at hand.
Generalizations? Do elaborate.

Example:

"We have independent estimates suggesting the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago."

= opinion.
Er no. An opinion would contain something like "I think..." or "I believe" or something similar. What I said was either the truth or a lie. You can accuse me of lieing if you so wish.

Productive statement:

"We have independent estimates suggesting the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago, which is clearly demonstrated by ............ [enter scientific reason here]"
Ever heard of the phrase "practice what you preach?" Maybe you could quantify some of your assertions over in the thread on the pioneer anomaly?

Example:

"And evolution is just a theory"

= opinion

Productive statement:

"And evolution is just a theory, because [enter person here] has observed [enter object here]"
Erm. You do realise I was being sarcastic here right?

Example:

"What like BB theory predicted the CMBR?"

Productive statement:

"What like BB theory predicted the CMBR. The prediction was [enter prediction] Which was confirmed [enter confirmation here]"
Erm, sorry. I thought you said you had a degree in physics. I mean I wouldn't want to have to "spoonfeed you everything".

Example:

"Like your claims that the Sun might not be powered by fusion in the core?"

Productive statement:

"Like your claims that the Sun might not be powered by fusion in the core? Which we know not to be true because .........."
Erm. I already explained in the other thread why this was impossible. And you just ignored it. Why would I bother doing so again?
 
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... snip ...
Upchurch said:
Do you have any evidence or peer-reviewed research that isn't over 10 years old?
Sorry, I forgot that any science publication that is over ten years old can be immedietly discounted :rolleyes:
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Well 10 might be a bit too restrictive, but papers from much before ~1992 cannot have addressed observations of the CMB angular power spectrum, and for them to have real meat they'd need to be no more than about 10 years' old.

If you don't understand how important the CMB angular power spectrum is, in terms of observational cosmology, by all means please ask ... there are plenty of JREF members who'd be only too happy to explain it to you.
.
Some of these publications may be a good place to start;

IEEE Transactions on plasma Science, Cosmic plasma. Volume: 35 Issue: 4 Part: 1 Date: Aug. 2007 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isnumber=4287017
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I'm confused (sadly, it happens rather often when I read material you post) ... there seems to be nothing here on cosmology (with one, marginally possible, exception).

I mean, to pick just one example, what does "Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current $Z$-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity Part II: Directionality and Source" have to do with the origin and evolution of the universe for example, or its large scale structure? This really looks like woo of the purest kind. :eye-poppi
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IEEE Transactions on plasma Science, Cosmic plasma. Volume: 31 Issue: 6 Part: 1 Date: Dec. 2003 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isYear=2003&isnumber=28301
Ditto, with one definite and one possible exception?
IEEE Transactions on plasma Science, Cosmic plasma. Volume: 28 Issue: 6 Date: Dec 2000 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isYear=2000&isnumber=19507
... snip ...
Ditto2, only for these, everything seems to be about 'space weather', and other (inner) solar system phenomena.

Would you please point to what, specifically, any of these papers have to do with cosmology (other than the Lerner 2003 one)?
 
Heck, let's just boil it down to just a specific hydrogen atom. This hydrogen atom has, under your theory, has existed infinitely long ago in the past. Let's say the the hydrogen atom has a time of some sort. What does that time read when the atom reaches the present? Can it even reach the present? If so, how can it if it must wait in infinitely long period of time to get here?

Duuuuuude.

I need to stop coming here when I'm high....
 
Interesting though this subject is, it is not addressing the original topic. Can we please move all discussion of plasma cosmology to the other thread, which was created for that purpose, and return to Jerome's steady-state theories?

Thanks.
 
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Interesting though this subject is, it is not addressing the original topic. Can we please move all discussion of plasma cosmology to the other thread, which was created for that purpose, and return to Jerome's steady-state theories?

Thanks.

Well seeing as how the Big Bang is the accepted thoery which concludes a beginning and Plasma cosmology presents science which does not nessitate a beginning...


I am thoughly vindicated in the fact that Big Bang supporters are nothing more than sycophants to popular ideology.
 
Well seeing as how the Big Bang is the accepted thoery which concludes a beginning and Plasma cosmology presents science which does not nessitate a beginning...


I am thoughly vindicated in the fact that Big Bang supporters are nothing more than sycophants to popular ideology.

The obvious response is:
"I am thoughly vindicated in the fact that steady state supporters are nothing more than sycophants to unpopular ideology."

Keeping to this thread: What brand of steady state theory do you believe in Jerome?
 
Well seeing as how the Big Bang is the accepted thoery which concludes a beginning and Plasma cosmology presents science which does not nessitate a beginning...


I am thoughly vindicated in the fact that Big Bang supporters are nothing more than sycophants to popular ideology.
That wasn't my intention, and I think you know it, Jerome. I would prefer it if the details of plasma cosmology were discussed in a different thread. For the purposes of this thread, it can be assumed that plasma cosmology is a steady-state alternative to mainstream inflationary cosmology and leave it at that.

So the question now stands:

What brand of steady state theory do you believe in Jerome?
 
That wasn't my intention, and I think you know it, Jerome. I would prefer it if the details of plasma cosmology were discussed in a different thread. For the purposes of this thread, it can be assumed that plasma cosmology is a steady-state alternative to mainstream inflationary cosmology and leave it at that.

So the question now stands:

I am sorry. You have always been honest and respectful. :blush:

I do not subcribe to Steady-State. I was attemtping to make the point that science does not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
Well seeing as how the Big Bang is the accepted thoery which concludes a beginning and Plasma cosmology presents science which does not nessitate a beginning...


I am thoughly vindicated in the fact that Big Bang supporters are nothing more than sycophants to popular ideology.
I'm a sycophant to the evidence. Yes, I admit it, I'll follow the evidence wherever it leads me, even if I find that place unsettling.

If I'd lived 1000 years ago I'd have said that God created the Earth and set the Sun, Moon and stars in motion around it. Because that was the best guess on the evidence available, which was, basically, none.

If I'd lived 100 years ago I'd have said that the Universe was infinite and unchanging, and that the Sun's energy came from the fact that it was a huge pile of cometary material rubbing together to produce huge amounts of friction. Because that was the best theory available to the science that was known at that time.

If I'm alive in 100 years I may laugh at the inability of current scientists to combine relativity and quantum mechanics, but I'd probably marvel at the progress that had been made to get to our current understanding.

If I were to live 1000 years from now I might be sitting on the porch of my little house on a planet orbiting a star 100 light years from Earth, gazing through a telescope at Sol, and wondering how the physicists of the 21st century could have failed to spot the obvious. But more likely I'd gaze at that little yellow star and marvel at the intellects that made the advances, against tides of public opinion, religious objections and professional scorn, that laid the foundations for FTL travel, terraforming, and countless other technological marvels.

But this one thing I'm sure of - whatever the prevailing physical paradigm is 1000 years from now, it will be based on the evidence. And I'd follow it.

If the evidence said the Universe were static and infinite I'd accept that as fact.

If the evidence said that the Universe was dominated by electric fields, and the Sun was powered by low level electric fields permeating the Galaxy, I'd accept that.

If the evidence showed that the Earth was a flat disk sitting on the backs of 4 elephants, carried by a cosmic turtle swimming in a sea of milk I'd accept that as fact.

But the evidence doesn't show any of these things. What it shows is that the Universe is 13.7 billion years old, started in an event called the Big Bang, has been expanding ever since, and may keep on expanding forever. It shows that stars are powered by nuclear fusion reactions caused by high pressures and temperatures in their cores. It shows that each generation of stars adds more and more heavy elements to the Universe, changing the chemical make-up of the next generation of stars.

And that's the problem your arguments have JEROME. You're arguing against a theory that is supported by mountains of evidence. You're arguing for a theory which used to be the prevailing mode of thought, but was shown to be wrong by the evidence. You try to point out little problems with small bits of the theory, but these objections are shown time and again to be false. In response to the whole theory, you simply accuse it of being false because it's based on a false initial premise. I've lost count of the number of times that objection has been shown to be pointless.

So, one last time, I'm going to lay out the way in which the evidence for the Big Bang piled up.

Einstein produces his theory of relativity. The natural conclusion of the theory is that the Universe should be expanding or contracting, but he doesn't like this for aesthetic reasons, so he adds a constant to his equations to maintain the static nature of the Universe. The theory is confirmed by the orbit of Mercury, and also, a few years later, during a total Solar eclipse, when light from a star near the Sun's limb is shown to have been bent by the Sun's gravity, exactly the amount relativity predicts (relativity has since been demonstrated by a huge number of experiments including the fact that GPS satellites need to take it into account to give accurate measurements). Hubble measures the redshifts of galaxies and comparing these to their distances (calculated from the magnitudes of different types of stars they contain) discovers that the further away they are the faster they're travelling away from us. Einstein calls his Cosmological constant "The greatest mistake I ever made!" Hoyle tries to argue against the theory, dubbing it the "Big Bang" and complaining that it opens the door for theists to say that God did it.

It is reasoned that if the Universe began as a tiny fireball then there should be a tell-tale radiation signature, a near perfect blackbody radiation curve at just a few degrees above absolute zero, called the Cosmic Background Radiation (CBR). Penzias and Wilson, while setting up their microwave antenna find a constant signal from all areas of the sky which they first mistake as being due to pigeon droppings in the feed horn of their antenna. After cleaning it out, and discovering that the signal is still there, they try numerous other ideas, until, in desperation they call a friend, hoping he might know what it is. He does, he was planning to set up a microwave antenna to look for it. They've discovered the CBR, at exactly the temperature it was predicted to have. By accident.

Boomerang, a balloon borne microwave antenna, maps the CBR and shows it to have a near perfect blackbody curve. This is followed by COBE, a satellite that shows there are minute anisotropies in the CBR. Theory predicts this, since a perfectly smooth Big Bang would not have allowed the galaxies to form as they have. WMAP, the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe shows the anisotropies in far more detail, obtaining a power spectrum which agrees to a very high degree with the predictions of theory.

Nucleosynthesis, a field of physics made possible by relativity, shows that stars are powered by core nuclear fusion reactions, and even allows scientists to work out how much energy any given star is producing, and which nuclear reactions are happening in its core (actually, it's a little more complicated than that, but it all agrees with the theory). Particle physics predicts that the Sun's core nuclear fusion reactions should produce massive numbers of near massless particles called neutrinos which should be cascading through the Earth from the Sun. Neutrinos are discovered in exactly the amounts that theory predicts.

Relativity makes other predictions - black holes, neutron stars, pulsars, time dilation, all of which have been evidenced, confirming the power of relativity, which is is the basis predicting the Big bang, which has also been evidenced in many different ways.

The only initial premise in all of this is that the laws of physics are constant everywhere and everywhen, with the sole exception of the inside of a singularity (this is because the maths we have can't cope with such an extreme situation, not because it breaks the laws of physics). You might try to argue that the laws of physics aren't constant, but then you can't be sure of anything, and you might as well give up on astronomy completely.

The evidence leads, inexorably, to the conclusion that the Universe started as a tiny fireball. What set that fireball off is completely unknown, and may be unknowable. But it's where the evidence leads. And that's where I follow.

You can protest "Western Religious thinking", and "Dogmatic adherence to orthodoxy" all you like. You can pooh-pooh linear time, and the idea of a beginning. You can make erroneous statements like "science evidences that life only arises from non life" until you're blue in the face.

I choose to follow the evidence.
 
Well seeing as how the Big Bang is the accepted thoery which concludes a beginning and Plasma cosmology presents science which does not nessitate a beginning...


I am thoughly vindicated in the fact that Big Bang supporters are nothing more than sycophants to popular ideology.

Care to explain how you concluded this? The Big Bang has science to back it up. Many of us here are scientists. We follow the evidence. Evidence like the redshift-distance relation, the dating of stars, the CMBR etc. The evidence leads us to the conclusion that the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago. Which bit of the evidence comes from popular ideology? Is there an ancient Greek myth that says the galaxies will fly apart at approximately 70km/s per Mpc? Have I missed the part in Genesis where God says "Let there be cosmic microwave backround radiation. Let it have a blackbody temperature of 2.7K and let it be discovered by a couple of men taking measurements with a new antenna. Let them mistakenly think its noise as a result of pigeon poo"?
 
There are numerous solutions to Olbers paradox that are perfectly consistent with an infinite universe, and dont support the Big Bang.

Consistent with an infinite universe, yes - and inconsistent with the laws of physics.

There's no point in responding to you Zeuzzz - you and your pet theories were quite thoroughly discredited in another thread, you were exposed as a petulant liar, and you ran away claiming to be too busy to post. Spamming other threads with the same old nonsense just makes you look desperate and gives the lie to your excuses.

Enough Zeuzzz woo, back to the regularly scheduled JdG woo.
 
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Lest it be forgotten in the plasma cosmology sub-discussion, I was quite serious in my earlier question (with the typos corrected):
Consider a particular star. Heck, let's just boil it down to just a specific hydrogen atom. This hydrogen atom has, under your theory, has existed infinitely long ago in the past. Let's say the the hydrogen atom has a timer of some sort. What does that timer read when the atom reaches the present? Can it even reach the present? If so, how can it if it must wait in infinitely long period of time to get here?
There are infinities and then there are infinities and then there are also just really really large, but finite, numbers. There are consequences and paradoxes that arise when you invoke an unbounded infinity that could result in logically inconsistencies in your model.

...and no evidence is needed to disprove an logically inconsistent argument.
 
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I am sorry. You have always been honest and respectful. :blush:

I do not subcribe to Steady-State. I was attemtping to make the point that science does not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Unless, of course, the baby has drowned in that bathwater.

Like arthwollipot and others I would be interested to hear what you consider to be a viable alternative to the big bang and steady state. Or is it that you do not choose to accept anything, so you can argue whatever suits you at the moment?
 
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